Article: Are pilots flying beyond their limits?

[minitour]

hey, it is a status. Better than being the dumbest kid on the short bus.

I resemble that remark.

-mini

 

[Boris Badenov]

I think it's sort of hilarious that airline employees are unable to travel on their days off because it's impossible to be sure you'll get back on time on the airlines.

Report to your housing cube, #983952-115. You are next scheduled for service in 36.32 hours. Failure to comply will result in termination and soil reclaimation.

 

[Roger, Roger]

"I can assure you that our 5,000 employees are dedicated to ensuring the safe transport of 13 million passengers annually," Trenary told Congress during testimony last summer. "Our No. 1 guiding principle is 'never compromise safety.'

There are no pilots flying fatigued at Pinnacle!

 

[mxflyer]

Saying you work for a "high tier" regional is like saying your the smartest kid on the short bus..

Funny saying, but not true.

 

[skydog2]

However, if you're going to cast such an eye on commuters - what about guys who like to travel to places on their days off - in essence commuting back in when they've got their next trip.

What about them? They need to plan to be back from their travels just like any other person who doesn't have flight benefits.

That said, it is beyond me that any FAA official or airline manager can look at a law that allows a 16 hour duty day, followed by an 8 hour rest period, followed by potentially another 16 hour duty day, and say "Yep, that looks safe to me."

 

[3green]

Commuting is a reality of a job where bases open and close like the wind changes.

Exactly what Skydog is saying, how can anyone look at a 16hr duty day flying passengers around as being ok? The FAA and companies don't give a crap because its the bottom dollar that matters. They could care less if pilots are forced to sleep on deadheads/lounges/crew rooms to catch up on lost sleep.

And we all know how much real rest someone gets from sleeping in the crew room recliner <sarcasm>. <sarcasm><sarcasm></sarcasm></sarcasm>

 

[higney85]

That's a little naive.

If I offer to do your job for 15% less pay, are you and I "in it together"? Or if I offer to do a major airline's job for 1/4 the pay, are they and I "in it together"? I spent a lot of time in a lot of CAL terminals, never had a CAL guy walk up to me and say "thanks for being in this with me".

The fact that two individuals share the same career goals does not put them "in it together", any more than I am "in it" with other marketing people right now in my current job. You're polite, and friendly, and act like a human being, but you're always in competition and fighting off the next under-cut. Someone willing to take a income hit to steal my marketing clients is no more my partner than someone willing to do the same at a regional for a quick upgrade.

When the topic at hand is fatigue we are in the same boat. Fatigued is fatigued whether it happens at 1300 hours in a -900, 4000 hours in a -200, or 10k hours in a 757. Fatigue is an area that everyone is dealing with.

 

[Nick]

Exhibit #249,307 on what happens when you go to a lower tier regional for the quick upgrade, and you end up getting stuck as FO for years.

Imagine a story about a fatigued captain at the same company.

The captain would fly an identical schedule to the first officer in the article.

Would the fact that they are stuck there as a captain for years change anything to do with the fatigue and schedule issue?

 

[OldTownPilot]

Alright boys, you are all just as dead as each other if you make a fatigued smoking hole in the ground no matter what you fly or what paint is on your plane.

 

[shdw]

That said, it is beyond me that any FAA official or airline manager can look at a law that allows a 16 hour duty day, followed by an 8 hour rest period, followed by potentially another 16 hour duty day, and say "Yep, that looks safe to me."

First, I agree with the need for shorter duty days and longer rest even if this next bit sounds like I don't.

I would like to compare a pilot to a doctor (surgeon to be exact) for a second:

Pay: Used to be pretty even among both, that is 100-200k
Schooling: Pilot - a few years | Surgeon - 10+
Residency: Pilot - A few years of relatively normal work days | Surgeon - some of the most grueling years of their lives
Dream job: Pilot - 16hr day 8hr rest 3-4 days a week | Surgeon - If they are in the top 1 percent then comparable to a pilot, otherwise their work day puts us to shame.

A buddy of mine is an orthopedic surgeon. His longest work day was 37 hours, after performing two surgeries post the 30 hour mark. According to him, he and his fellow surgeons still regularly do surgery when they have been on duty for over 24 hours. We complain about being up for 16 a few days in a row...


That said, I bet some CEO in the airline industry has said this or something similar, "250 in 16 years...that is only 15.6 people a year...that is an acceptable number." It is this mindset that I disagree with and even if they never said it, business is a balance of risk/reward, I bet they have thought it.

 

[Boris Badenov]

That said, I bet some CEO in the airline industry has said this or something similar, "250 in 16 years...that is only 15.6 people a year...that is an acceptable number." It is this mindset that I disagree with and even if they never said it, business is a balance of risk/reward, I bet they have thought it.

What would you have them do? Life is risk. The question is how much is acceptable and at what cost. My loathing of airline management has nothing to do with the inescapable fact that they (necessarily) compute the risk/reward ratio, it's that they lie about it and adopt asinine slogans like "safety is our only concern".

 

[greaper007]

Exhibit #249,307 on what happens when you go to a lower tier regional for the quick upgrade, and you end up getting stuck as FO for years.

I upgraded at Colgan in less than a year and a half. It was a poophole place to work. I still say it was a better option than any other regional though.

 

[Ian_J]

A buddy of mine is an orthopedic surgeon. His longest work day was 37 hours, after performing two surgeries post the 30 hour mark. According to him, he and his fellow surgeons still regularly do surgery when they have been on duty for over 24 hours. We complain about being up for 16 a few days in a row...

For the last 16 months and for the next 14 days, my job has marriage-like ties to orthopaedic surgeons. The guys I work with, all post residency and working at independent practices, have pretty standard days that are M-F 0700-1800-ish. They generally do surgeries half the day and are in clinic half the day. Some of the junior guys are on call weekends for the hospitals they are affiliated with.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I upgraded at Colgan in less than a year and a half. It was a poophole place to work. I still say it was a better option than any other regional though.

No offense dude, but can you really say that as an educated statement? Have you worked at any other regionals?

I went to one other place. While Eagle has problems all its own, Colgan makes Eagle look like NASA.

... and I'm not saying this to make some egotistical comparison, just to lend some perspective.

Since so much of what Eagle, Colgan, or any regional does is influenced by 'competitive market factors', we're really all part of the same big inbred retarded family. This chain really is only as strong as the weakest link.

 

[Firebird2XC]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cover17-2010jan17,0,5261120.story

Are pilots flying beyond their limits?

Long shifts and multiple flights can take their toll, a pilot for a regional airline says. In recent years, fatigue has been cited as a likely factor in four crashes.

But sleep experts say that the federal limits fail to take into account the effects of flight delays, jet lag, increased workload, night flights and multiple flights during a shift. Pilots also work irregular hours -- sometimes starting in the middle of the night -- which can disrupt the body's natural sleep cycle.

The Pinnacle pilot says he has seen his co-workers take short naps or have trouble staying awake while in the cockpit. A 2008 study by NASA found that about 80% of regional pilots said they had nodded off during a flight.

John A. Caldwell, a Hawaii-based fatigue consultant who has worked for airlines, the armed forces and NASA, said pilots with long hours on duty can develop sleep deficits. The lack of rest can make it hard to perform even routine tasks and trigger a phenomenon known as micro-sleeps, nodding off from a fraction of second to several seconds.

Fatigue "is an epidemic type of problem," Caldwell said. "These guys really have a tough time. Most of the studies have involved pilots on long-range flights. But the regional guys make more landings and takeoffs a day. Their schedules are a lot more unpredictable. I'm sure it is a problem for [the pilot who spoke to The Times]."

...
...

"I used to love flying," the young man said. "I am good at what I do, but Pinnacle and the airline industry have sucked the passion out of it for me."

dan.weikel@latimes.com

The part in bold really stands out to me. I seem to remember being mocked for speaking out about my own experience in that sort of scenario.

Gee.. apparently I'm not just some shmuck asleep at the wheel. Apparently I'm at the leading edge of industry awareness.

 

[Polar742]

The part in bold really stands out to me. I seem to remember being mocked for speaking out about my own experience in that sort of scenario.

Gee.. apparently I'm not just some shmuck asleep at the wheel. Apparently I'm at the leading edge of industry awareness.

If you really wanna head down that road:

It's one thing to relay a personal experience. It's real and it's your experience. There is no denying YOUR perspective for YOURSELF.

It's another to base your idea to change an industry on two years of experience in an industry, with no study of any of the factors you wish to change.

Flight Safety Foundation, NASA, and universities have all conducted extensive research on the areas you discuss.

I have yet to see any of their (or any) studies cited in your discussions.

No one argues that people are fatigued flying the schedules. I mean, I flew domestic RJs for years. It was tiring. I couldn't imagine how fatiguing the guys that flew 10+ sectors a day for 5 days a week under the Part 135 regulations felt.

Fatigue, pencil whipping schedules, beating on employees in the commuter world is nothing new. That's why it was treated as a "stepping stone" for years.

Again, though, I submit, if YOU want to change the ENTIRE industry, you need sturdy facts.

So...we can have a "How can we make this better as a group?" approach, or we can taunt those that might have access to resources, or knowledge that could be helpful in our quest to improve things.

I just pray to god I never have to fly a real 3-man airplane with an FE under supplemental rules. It'll make my worst commuter day seem like a day off.

Actually, if calcapt, or chrisdahut (our resident DC10 Omni guy) would interject, I'd like to hear their experiences in flag and supplemental ops.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

Exhibit #249,307 on what happens when you go to a lower tier regional for the quick upgrade, and you end up getting stuck as FO for years.

I've been a Captain for over three years at one of the "top" regionals in the country, and I've been fatigued numerous times. It's the nature of the rules we are governed by, not the contract you fly under.

 

[Firebird2XC]

If you really wanna head down that road:

It's one thing to relay a personal experience. It's real and it's your experience. There is no denying YOUR perspective for YOURSELF.

It's another to base your idea to change an industry on two years of experience in an industry, with no study of any of the factors you wish to change.

Flight Safety Foundation, NASA, and universities have all conducted extensive research on the areas you discuss.

I have yet to see any of their (or any) studies cited in your discussions.

No one argues that people are fatigued flying the schedules. I mean, I flew domestic RJs for years. It was tiring. I couldn't imagine how fatiguing the guys that flew 10+ sectors a day for 5 days a week under the Part 135 regulations felt.

Fatigue, pencil whipping schedules, beating on employees in the commuter world is nothing new. That's why it was treated as a "stepping stone" for years.

Again, though, I submit, if YOU want to change the ENTIRE industry, you need sturdy facts.

So...we can have a "How can we make this better as a group?" approach, or we can taunt those that might have access to resources, or knowledge that could be helpful in our quest to improve things.

I just pray to god I never have to fly a real 3-man airplane with an FE under supplemental rules. It'll make my worst commuter day seem like a day off.

Actually, if calcapt, or chrisdahut (our resident DC10 Omni guy) would interject, I'd like to hear their experiences in flag and supplemental ops.

Yup, I said it. It wasn't directed at you, for what it's worth. Mr. Brannigan's statement regarding my lack of integrity based upon a leap to a conclusion he made was the issue at hand. I'm still waiting for his retraction/apology. But whatever. I suppose we're due for another 'goodbye, cruel site' speech from him soon anyhow.

As far as studies- the 1995 NASA-Ames research study on the effects of fatigue on short haul flying is a good start. The CRM course I took at CAE Simuflite is a good second step. You're right, I haven't been citing them, and perhaps I should have been. The data's already been compiled time and time again. Nobody was willing to really acknowledge it until now, apparently.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't apologize when i'm right. My wife is frustrated by it too, so don't feel like you're alone.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I don't apologize when i'm right. My wife is frustrated by it too, so don't feel like you're alone.

"Is not."

"Is too!"

You leapt to false conclusions, made bold accusations, then hid behind your keyboard and said nothing.

I have absolutely zero respect for you. Your life is a path of indecision, bluster, and negative hindsight.

You might not appreciate my methods, but at least I stand for something.