Are the regionals angling for a repeal of the ATP rule?

Autothrust Blue said:
I think we should be forgiving a lot of peoples' student loans; I'm okay with writing off hers.

That's not the subject at hand though. Comparing airline pilots to lawyers and doctors is somewhat specious, unless you want to mandate a much higher standard of training, education, self-policing and certification for pilots. (None of which is necessarily a bad idea, and/but some of which would put a lot of people out of work.)
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I lost count how many times pilots (regional pilots especially) compare themselves to doctors and lawyers as far as education goes. They are usually brainwashed Riddle and UND pukes, who think they Aeroscience degree actually means anything in the real world.

As for loans. I don't think anyone's loan should be forgiven. I worked hard and paid off all my loans and now you want some libtard freeloader to get Obama to forgive their loans because it's too tough out there in the real world? Sorry, but if you signed your name on the line for a loan, man up and repay it.
 
wheelsup said:
I knew a guy that started day 364 with his third regional.

The stagnation that occurred between 2008-2011 or so is gone (hopefully). Had Age 65 AND the economic collapse not have happened half of us here would've been at mainline years ago. It was just bad timing.
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A lot of it was bad timing. XJT unfortunately will continue to stagnate until the flood gates open up all the way at the majors. Airframe reductions have caused the cancellation of upgrade and new hire classes until at least next spring for the ERJ side.

Autothrust Blue said:
That's not the subject at hand though. Comparing airline pilots to lawyers and doctors is somewhat specious, unless you want to mandate a much higher standard of training, education, self-policing and certification for pilots. (None of which is necessarily a bad idea, and/but some of which would put a lot of people out of work.) We're worth more than we get the first year (or really five years), but the comparison lacks credibility.
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True to an extent. Training costs have skyrocketed up well beyond inflation while pilot compensation has remained stagnant and arguably has gone down over the last decade. First year pay needs to be enough to actually pay for the training required for the job. I don't care if the standards are perceived to be better or worse than other professions.

Entry level pay rates should be enough to pay for an apartment in a safe area, loan payments, and food with a little extra for entertainment so you don't go insane. The standard required to obtain the proper certifications means nothing if you still can't pay for the required training. That goes for all professions.
 
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Hadn't seen this posted here, but the RAA has started a website that's clearly angling for a substantial modification (if not outright appeal) of the ATP rule.

http://takeflighttomorrow.org/

Aside from the usual "quality, not quantity" argument, there's also claims that raising pilot pay wouldn't help the current shortage, and even if the airlines wanted to raise pay, the evil unions keep won't let them do that.
 
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ndakcfi said:
Hadn't seen this posted here, but the RAA has started a website that's clearly angling for a substantial modification (if not outright appeal) of the ATP rule.

http://takeflighttomorrow.org/

Aside from the usual "quality, not quantity" argument, there's also claims that raising pilot pay wouldn't help the current shortage, and even if the airlines wanted to raise pay, the evil unions keep won't let them do that.
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That website makes me want to throw things.
 
ndakcfi said:
Aside from the usual "quality, not quantity" argument, there's also claims that raising pilot pay wouldn't help the current shortage, and even if the airlines wanted to raise pay, the evil unions keep won't let them do that.
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Lies of omission suck. Especially when you have no way to combat them such as with this website. No comments are publicly allowed.

Unfortunately ALPA seems to lack the funds or skills required to make a proper website to help. Seems their websites are already 5+ more years behind.
 
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Maurus said:
True to an extent. Training costs have skyrocketed up well beyond inflation while pilot compensation has remained stagnant and arguably has gone down over the last decade. First year pay needs to be enough to actually pay for the training required for the job. I don't care if the standards are perceived to be better or worse than other professions.

Entry level pay rates should be enough to pay for an apartment in a safe area, loan payments, and food with a little extra for entertainment so you don't go insane. The standard required to obtain the proper certifications means nothing if you still can't pay for the required training. That goes for all professions.
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I agree.

But if you think for a minute that the ATP rule is going to help achieve that, I have a bridge to sell you.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I agree.

But if you think for a minute that the ATP rule is going to help achieve that, I have a bridge to sell you.
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It is a step in the right direction. When the flood gates open properly at the majors the ATP rule will greatly hinder hiring capabilities at the regionals. Pay may not go up but other possible outcomes are more mainline jobs and less regional feed.

Until places like Mesa and PSA can't keep up with hiring nothing positive well happen to the career.
 
Maurus said:
Lies of omission suck. Especially when you have no way to combat them such as with this website. No comments are publicly allowed.

Unfortunately ALPA seems to lack the funds or skills required to make a proper website to help. Seems their websites are already 5+ more years behind.
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Ummm, you don't need ALPA to do it. I'm sure @Autothrust Blue and I could have something better up in a weekend. What would the message be though?

EDIT: It is Wordpress with the default twentyfourteen theme. You could probably pay some college kid a case of beer to do better...
 
Likely something that properly fills in the holes the RAA conveniently leaves out when making their argument. That would be a good start at least.
 
Maurus said:
Likely something that properly fills in the holes the RAA conveniently leaves out when making their argument. That would be a good start at least.
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I now own the domain flightsafetyfirst.com . If the peanut gallery can tell me 5 to 8 good bullet points to put up there, and 200 words to go with each, and pick out a few good stock photos of smiling pilots and kids with plastic airplane wings, I will make such a website tomorrow (after I watch Holland move on to the final...)
 
Maurus said:
Lies of omission suck. Especially when you have no way to combat them such as with this website. No comments are publicly allowed. Unfortunately ALPA seems to lack the funds or skills required to make a proper website to help. Seems their websites are already 5+ more years behind.
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DotNetNuke is an absolutely HORRENDOUS platform.

But yes. I agree.
 
jtrain609 said:
It's a gradual step up process and the mainline carriers know it.

First the 50 seat aircraft becomes uneconomical, so you find ways to get rid of an aircraft that is oversubscribed in a market that has overcapacity even when you get rid of those 50 seaters. How do you do that? You take advantage of any disaster that you can. This is not new, it has been done in the past, and it will be done again in the future. That disaster right now is the pilot shortage.

tl;dr, what @Polar742 said.

What comes after that? You replace those 50 seat aircraft with 76 seat aircraft, which is what's happening right now. Soon we won't see any 50 seat aircraft, and instead we'll have a (smaller) regional industry of 76 seat aircraft.

That'll buy you a few years.

When those become uneconomical, you replace them with extra fuel efficient 76 seat aircraft with geared engines like the EMB-175 E2.

An aircraft that Skywest has 100 orders for.

This will buy you a few more years.

This buys you enough time to purchase 717's, 190's, F100's, DC-9-30's, or whatever the new hotness is.

Within 8-10 years, the regionals won't exist anymore and all that feed will be up at mainline again.

So at this point, somebody comes in and screams, "BUT THE MAINLINE PARTNERS NEED THE REGIONALS! THEY'VE ALWAYS NEEDED THE REGIONALS!!!!!!11"

This, of course, belies history.

Before the regionals existed, Airways was flying around F100's, Northwest was flying around small DC-9's, and Delta had 737-200's, as did United. The mainline carriers used to do this feed, and then they found it to be cheaper to farm it out to the regionals. The moment it's cheaper for the mainline carriers to do the flying back at mainline, the regionals will go away. They were always a temporary solution, and will only be kept around as long as they're useful.

This is a chess game, guys. If you can see what the moves are moving forward, you always win and you're never shocked. If you can't, then you'll get bounced around and be confused about WHY you're getting bounced around.
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I agree with everything in this post except for"They were always a temporary solution.....". At a recent union meeting I spoke with a now retired former US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman. He was on the Allegheny Seniority List when the first Beach 99 started service between Clarksburg WV, and Pittsburgh.

Allegheny Commuter was the model for the industry and it took off with Allegheny and then later with all the majors. That was 1967 and I was in Jr. High School. That was 47 years ago. In 2017, the Fee for departure, Regional Airline or Code Share partner concept, will be 50 years old. It is here to stay.

Surprisingly we all concentrate on the Pilot Crew Costs. However there is far more savings in other job classes. Ticketing, Ground Service, Maintenance, and other support functions become part time jobs with no union and no retirement. The Pilots are simply the most visible component of the labor savings.

I think, like the majors, fuel is the greatest cost component of regional airlines. I don't think there are any significant savings that can be had from regional airline labor. Labor cost was the main reason for creating the regional carrier in the first place.

The first CRJ-100 flew in 1996. Spot oil prices were in the low $20 per barrel range. We now have oil above $100.00. Average avgas prices are showing $6.37 in the North East US. I can remember renting a new 172 for about $24/ hr. At 6.5 gallons per hour average that's $41.40 now just for the gas. You can't rent an airplane for under $100 dollars anywhere I am aware of.

There is a perfect storm coming and the cost of getting the training and experience is getting higher and higher and the regional business model is broken so it is unlikely that the regional industry will increase pay and benefits significantly.

US Airways just replaced their director of training on the US Side and placed him in charge of pilot recruitment and Envoy. It is reported that the United MEC is having open houses for ALPA Fee for departure pilots.

What to do to help fix the problem? [My suggestions only]

1. Majors need a real move up or flow up programs for their partners.
2. The industry should embrace the large Turboprop. Customers don't like them as much as jets but these are part 25 aircraft that have professional training just like the RJ's.
(I don't know the numbers but the Q-400 is supposed to be the least expensive 50+seat aircraft to operate in commercial service.
3. Pilots who fly large Turboprops in a move up program should be given the exact same consideration as a pilot who flies an RJ.
4. The FAA should place the regional certificates on the major's insurance certificate. If it wears a major's colors it must operate like a major in all aspects and the major partner is responsible to see that this is so. If there is an accident like the Buffalo crash the major should be as responsible as the code share partner. A real effort to "One level of Safety."

There must be a reasonable expectation that a pilot that enters this industry should be able to have a career. With all the retirements coming up and the shortage the major's will have to invest a little to make it work. This type of thing is not unheard of in other industries.

Here endith the ranting.
 
ndakcfi said:
Hadn't seen this posted here, but the RAA has started a website that's clearly angling for a substantial modification (if not outright appeal) of the ATP rule.

http://takeflighttomorrow.org/

Aside from the usual "quality, not quantity" argument, there's also claims that raising pilot pay wouldn't help the current shortage, and even if the airlines wanted to raise pay, the evil unions keep won't let them do that.
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I think the regional pilots need to realize "the union" (ALPA National) has done nothing but poop on regional F/Os, and to an extent, CAs, ever since the mini-majors were created when the mainline guys said "we don't want it and in exchange we'll take a 30% raise" (circa 2000 w/ UAL contract).

The regionals also weighed heavily onto the CA and, "lifer" CA pay vs. spreading the wealth around. The very idea of a union was lost on those who set the pay rates (more likely, they wanted the money and were in control of the process).

At the mainline level I can understand low starting pay rapidly increasing over a decade. But why is this the way at the regionals? And why is it over 18 years? And why not 12 like at the majors?

And when management wants to increase pay, the "union" refuses to raise first year or even F/O pay in general because they want the CA's to get a raise as well! (Has happened in recent past). Those 18 year CA's, they need another $10/hr you know too! During the congressional hearings Lee Moak was asked why the disparity in pay and he had absolutely no response for that.

/rant
 
Proud Pilot said:
I lost count how many times pilots (regional pilots especially) compare themselves to doctors and lawyers as far as education goes. They are usually brainwashed Riddle and UND pukes, who think they Aeroscience degree actually means anything in the real world.

As for loans. I don't think anyone's loan should be forgiven. I worked hard and paid off all my loans and now you want some libtard freeloader to get Obama to forgive their loans because it's too tough out there in the real world? Sorry, but if you signed your name on the line for a loan, man up and repay it.
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UND pukes?
 
Maurus said:
A lot of it was bad timing. XJT unfortunately will continue to stagnate until the flood gates open up all the way at the majors. Airframe reductions have caused the cancellation of upgrade and new hire classes until at least next spring for the ERJ side.
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I was telling people to bail when they lost 1/4 of their airplanes way back when.
 
wheelsup said:
I was telling people to bail when they lost 1/4 of their airplanes way back when.
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Probably wasn't a bad idea back then. Especially for the furloughed people. Personally I don't expect to upgrade at a regional and went for QOL when I made my decision to go to XJT. I live in base and operate under one of the best contracts at the regional level. This makes sense with my background. New people to the industry will likely do better going somewhere else.
 
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