AOPA Rod Machado article

  • Thread starter Thread starter Roger, Roger
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You're grabbing extreme examples here outside the normal range of flight in order to justify a previous incorrect statement. Mshunter's concern about exceeding a 60 degree bank is justified, since the aircraft will start to exceed the load factor limit just 15 degrees past that.



In the end, it will be 2'gs. You don't need back pressure on the yoke to produce the load factor.

Extreme examples? Operating limitations aside, all this can be done a C172...it's just not pretty or legal. The airplane is still a 3 dimensional, all-attitude vehicle.

It's totally possible to maintain altitude with a 60dg AOB, at 1G

These "extreme" examples are how airplanes really fly. Whenever "roll" is mentioned, most pilots automatically think "turn". Ailerons do not turn the airplane.

You can roll right and turn left & vise versa.
 
Back to the original question, here are my two cents:

I haven't read Rod's article, so I can't comment on the specifics.

In general, I'd say the biggest thing that will help retain students is feeling connected to their instructor. The instructor has to be the type of person who makes the complete experience enjoyable. That means the *complete* experience. Not just the technical aspect of teaching steep turns. I mean everything from chit chatting about what they did last weekend, to making them feel safe when practicing stalls, to having a clear cut plan of action on how to get the customer through training.

Instructors who know how to fly are a dime a dozen. Instructors who have it all when it comes to a gleaming personality, technical knowledge of flying, business sense, communication skills, etc. are really, really, really rare. The longer I do this job, the more I realize how rare this type of person is.

Teaching the "bare bones" basics in VFR equipped taildraggers sure does sound fun--to you, me, and apparently Rod Machado--but I doubt it would do much to retain students. I believe it would trade one problem for another. For every customer who would get really excited about flying because of this approach, I bet you'd lose customers who would get frustrated by not seeing the correlation between what they're doing in training and what they ultimately want to do as pilots.

I'd say we, as an industry, would see bigger improvements in student retention if we improve the quality of the instructors and flight school owners than if we try to revamp our training syllabuses. We're going to have to fundamentally shift our attitudes towards training. Forget the idea of trying to make it cheap. Set the prices at whatever it takes to pay the bills. Pay the instructors well, so they actually want to stick around longer than their first airline/cargo/charter job offer. Fly nice, clean, safe, well equipped planes. Don't hire instructors who suck. Just because they have a CFI certificate doesn't mean they deserve to work as an instructor. They need to have the personality for it. It might be hard to find this type of person, but it won't matter, because your current instructors actually want to stick around once you have them. Flight school owners need to put customer service at the top of the list, not something to cut in an effort to save money.

If everyone approaches flight training in this way, it won't really matter if a school is flying VFR taildraggers or G1000 Cessna 172s for primary training. Customers will stick around because they'll have a great experience with their instructor, the school's management, etc.

Now, regarding the discussion about spins, aerobatic, and tailwheel training...I don't think it has much to do with retention, but some of you make it sound like everyone would be "better" or safer pilots if these things were emphasized more. I disagree.

I've never seen any hard statistical evidence that proves pilots who undergo this type of training have fewer accidents. In fact, one could argue the contrary--back in the 1950s, when tailwheel/spin/stick 'n rudder flying were all drilled in to people more forcefully than today, we, as an industry, had terrible accident rates. Accident rates have steadily declined over time to all time lows in recent years. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what causes what, because there are so many different types of accidents and changes in training that have occurred over the years. But I have a hard time believing that our modern, GPS equipped, tricycle gear aircraft are actually making us *less* safe than the alternative.

I think Fly_Unity also had some excellent thoughts on the practical side to this whole shortened approach to training:

Really though, I think 10 hours is to low in todays environment for most people. Maybe it wasnt in the 50's when Americans all had a mechanical mindset and drove tractors and other equipment. In todays world, few people have that mindset. Now days its more of an electronic mindset.

Also with how expensive General Aviation is now days its a different story. 30 years ago if you ground looped or flipped the airplane you fixed it with duct tape and kept going. Now days, Its a very expensive deal with a prop strike, insurance goes up, FAA gets involved in anything, Airplane has damage history making it worthless. Insurance wont allow low time time pilots solo taildraggers unless you pay them a thousands. The list goes on.

Airtraffic control has little tolerance in busy airspace to mess with a guy with only 10 hours in a pattern. FAA Examiners and DE's are stricter following PTS standards that a private pilots license is no longer a license to learn. Less people are learning to fly for the fun of it, but rather as a career.

Sure it would be nice if every student learns to fly in a Super Cub, Spins on private checkrides, all dirt strips, no GPS, land where ever you want, and the Airlines all used DC-3's, However, in todays world thats not going to be possible. Looking down memory lane, the 50's are enticing no matter what career your in.

:yeahthat:
 
I'd say we, as an industry, would see bigger improvements in student retention if we improve the quality of the instructors and flight school owners than if we try to revamp our training syllabuses. We're going to have to fundamentally shift our attitudes towards training. Forget the idea of trying to make it cheap. Set the prices at whatever it takes to pay the bills. Pay the instructors well, so they actually want to stick around longer than their first airline/cargo/charter job offer. Fly nice, clean, safe, well equipped planes. Don't hire instructors who suck. Just because they have a CFI certificate doesn't mean they deserve to work as an instructor. They need to have the personality for it. It might be hard to find this type of person, but it won't matter, because your current instructors actually want to stick around once you have them. Flight school owners need to put customer service at the top of the list, not something to cut in an effort to save money.

Good words.
 
Both the 15lb and the 8 lb bowling ball will acclerate at the same speed, but the heaver one will keep speeding up to a higher terminal velocity. Is that correct?

I believe that the math would work out having the lighter body having a slower acceleration due to the drag having a larger effect on its smaller mass. I would normally do a reality check by crunching a few numbers, but I'm hungry right now. ;-)
 
I've never seen any hard statistical evidence that proves pilots who undergo this type of training have fewer accidents. In fact, one could argue the contrary--
:yeahthat:

There is actually quite a bit of hard evidence through NASA and independent study. I have a few case studies I'll post when I get back to a computer. It was found that overall practical application of spin recovery produced the lowest accident rate.
 
Back to the original question, here are my two cents:

I haven't read Rod's article, so I can't comment on the specifics.

In general, I'd say the biggest thing that will help retain students is feeling connected to their instructor. The instructor has to be the type of person who makes the complete experience enjoyable. That means the *complete* experience. Not just the technical aspect of teaching steep turns. I mean everything from chit chatting about what they did last weekend, to making them feel safe when practicing stalls, to having a clear cut plan of action on how to get the customer through training.

Instructors who know how to fly are a dime a dozen. Instructors who have it all when it comes to a gleaming personality, technical knowledge of flying, business sense, communication skills, etc. are really, really, really rare. The longer I do this job, the more I realize how rare this type of person is.

Teaching the "bare bones" basics in VFR equipped taildraggers sure does sound fun--to you, me, and apparently Rod Machado--but I doubt it would do much to retain students. I believe it would trade one problem for another. For every customer who would get really excited about flying because of this approach, I bet you'd lose customers who would get frustrated by not seeing the correlation between what they're doing in training and what they ultimately want to do as pilots.

I'd say we, as an industry, would see bigger improvements in student retention if we improve the quality of the instructors and flight school owners than if we try to revamp our training syllabuses. We're going to have to fundamentally shift our attitudes towards training. Forget the idea of trying to make it cheap. Set the prices at whatever it takes to pay the bills. Pay the instructors well, so they actually want to stick around longer than their first airline/cargo/charter job offer. Fly nice, clean, safe, well equipped planes. Don't hire instructors who suck. Just because they have a CFI certificate doesn't mean they deserve to work as an instructor. They need to have the personality for it. It might be hard to find this type of person, but it won't matter, because your current instructors actually want to stick around once you have them. Flight school owners need to put customer service at the top of the list, not something to cut in an effort to save money.

If everyone approaches flight training in this way, it won't really matter if a school is flying VFR taildraggers or G1000 Cessna 172s for primary training. Customers will stick around because they'll have a great experience with their instructor, the school's management, etc.

Now, regarding the discussion about spins, aerobatic, and tailwheel training...I don't think it has much to do with retention, but some of you make it sound like everyone would be "better" or safer pilots if these things were emphasized more. I disagree.
I don't know that chit chatting about the weekend is what students look for in a good instructor. The best instructor I know rarely talks to his students. He doesn't talk in the plane or on the ground much at all, but all of the students that have flown with him prefer to fly with him (except one). He is probably the best pilot I know though.

As for requiring aerobatics, tailwheels, etc., I probably would never have even started if that was a requirement. If I had to do aerobatics for my private I know I would not finish now. I want to at some point, but don't feel ready yet.
 
If I had to do aerobatics for my private I know I would not finish now. I want to at some point, but don't feel ready yet.

My supposition is that you only feel that way because you haven't been introduced to acro yet.

In the USAF, we take students out on flight #1 and demonstrate/instruct to basic aerobatics. Students don't know that they even have the option of not "feeling ready", because aerobatics is simply part of the part of the package of learning to fly -- no different than learning straight and level flight, or turns, or climbs, or the traffic pattern and landings.
 
I don't know that chit chatting about the weekend is what students look for in a good instructor. The best instructor I know rarely talks to his students.

I didn't mean to say chit chatting with everyone is a requirement to be a successful instructor.

I meant that instructors need to be personable and build a relationship with their clients beyond a "just the facts, ma'am" approach.

If two people are going to spend that much time in a confined space (cockpit) together, they *must* get along on a personal level. They don't have to be best buddies and go out to the bar together at night, but I've found it helps to converse about things aside from strictly flying.

If the client feels a personal connection to their instructor, they are less likely to quit.
 
My supposition is that you only feel that way because you haven't been introduced to acro yet.

In the USAF, we take students out on flight #1 and demonstrate/instruct to basic aerobatics. Students don't know that they even have the option of not "feeling ready", because aerobatics is simply part of the part of the package of learning to fly -- no different than learning straight and level flight, or turns, or climbs, or the traffic pattern and landings.
If they had done that on my first flight, it would have also been my last. It's not the actual feeling as much as the sight picture. If I did everything in a cloud I would be fine. ;) I am terrified in tall building or on bridges. (And I know nothing is really going to happen, but I just can't force myself to do it. I almost didn't make it on the cruise ship.)
 
I believe that the math would work out having the lighter body having a slower acceleration due to the drag having a larger effect on its smaller mass. I would normally do a reality check by crunching a few numbers, but I'm hungry right now. ;-)

Well there is more mass, but the two bowling balls should be same shape and volume, so the drag would be the same on both objects. The heavier one would have a higher terminal velocity, but both would accelerate at the same rate.
 
If they had done that on my first flight, it would have also been my last. It's not the actual feeling as much as the sight picture. If I did everything in a cloud I would be fine. ;) I am terrified in tall building or on bridges. (And I know nothing is really going to happen, but I just can't force myself to do it. I almost didn't make it on the cruise ship.)

So what would you do if you inadvertently got in a spin or a massive wing drop?
You don't actually have to answer that, but it's something to think about.
 
JRH-
As always, a worthwhile read. An interesting point brought up in Rod's article is that many instructors today do not believe that a student pilot can be safely soloed in 10 hours. While I would not disagree with an instructor of Rod's experience when he says that that belief is incorrect, after reading your post the question becomes not "can" but "should". And as always, the answer is, "it depends". In some cases, the bare-bones, 10 hours of straight stick-and-rudder to solo IS the right approach for the student. I've worked with a few students here and there that I think would have thrived in that environment. For others, it's just not, and as long as the stick and rudder flying IS taught, it doesn't matter that there is extra stuff mixed in there and that solo takes 20 or even 30 hours. As you've said many times before, the key is to do what is appropriate for the individual student. And it takes a good instructor (not just a good pilot) to divine that.
 
There is actually quite a bit of hard evidence through NASA and independent study. I have a few case studies I'll post when I get back to a computer. It was found that overall practical application of spin recovery produced the lowest accident rate.

The reason we have no spin demonstration for PPL students is that more stall/spin accidents were happening during training than after, looking at the records.

The FAA decided it would be safer to just not demonstrate them. I think training CFIs in spins more thoroughly and consistently would have been the better (but far more difficult) response.

For the record, the spin training I had for my PPL was more thorough than for my initial CFI.
 
So what would you do if you inadvertently got in a spin or a massive wing drop?
You don't actually have to answer that, but it's something to think about.
I would deal with it, but wouldn't want to try loops or barrel rolls on purpose. I actually like doing stalls (after we did the first one). Steep spins on the other hand. ;)
 
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