Anyone here work at Allegiant?

[typhoonpilot]

Don't forget its ANOTHER non-Union Company undercutting Union wages. You go there, don't come looking for favors.

So, what union carriers are currently hiring?

Pretty much every pilot I know would jump all over UPS and Fedex, but are they hiring right now? Even if they were is one guaranteed to get a job there or even an interview.

Union carriers aren't the be all, end all of aviation. While some are pretty darn good they have their downside too.

I personally have done far better both career wise and financially while at non-union carriers than while at union carriers. An anomoly?, maybe, but it's the truth. Currently non-union and making significantly more than most union pilots at the legacies.

Allegiant captains make decent money and have pretty darn good schedules.


Typhoonpilot

 

[grnclvrs]

Great, another alaska guy that's pissed that we will be on their doorstep. Ask anything you want about Allegiant, I'll answer as best I can. We carry a few Alaska guys in our jumpseats, they're always glad for the ride and none of them bitch about a union. I doubt that this guy will be introducing himself as "velocipede on JC" when he asks for a ride. He could spend the time trying to formulate an original thought instead of regurgitating FI crap.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Don't forget its ANOTHER non-Union Company undercutting Union wages. You go there, don't come looking for favors.

Really? Who's undercutting who Velo? Last time I checked, a SWA 10 year CA makes $50 more an hour than an Alaska 10 year CA flying basically the same equipment. Way to help out the 73 drivers. Who's undercutting who? You're hurting the industry. You need to refuse to fly until this gets straightened out. Period.

I can see negotiations next time around..."Well, don't look at Southwest, we have Alaska CA's who are more than willing to fly around the sky for $50 less/hour, so that's what this contract is worth". You should be ashamed.

 

[jtrain609]

You know Southwest is a union company, and he's going to throw that back in your face as saying that the highest paid 737 drivers in the country are also the most heavily uninionized company out there...right?

 

[MusketeerMan]

You know Southwest is a union company, and he's going to throw that back in your face as saying that the highest paid 737 drivers in the country are also the most heavily uninionized company out there...right?

Fully realize that. My thread was tongue in cheek, solely on the fact that SWA isn't ALPA. Velo's one of those "You aint ALPA, you aint nothing" kind of guys and well, to me, that's silly. Just brought up a very valid point, and that a non ALPA carrier has industry leading wages and work rules.

 

[jtrain609]

You also know, of course, that 10 years ago Southwest had the lowest 737 rates in the country and it's only because they haven't taken massive concessions that they have the highest pay rate now, right?

There are two sides to the coin. One is that it's great that Southwest has been able to hold onto its rates and continue to make money. The other side of that coin is that Southwest didn't really pay well until after 9/11 when the legacy carriers took their massive pay cuts.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You also know, of course, that 10 years ago Southwest had the lowest 737 rates in the country and it's only because they haven't taken massive concessions that they have the highest pay rate now, right?

There are two sides to the coin. One is that it's great that Southwest has been able to hold onto its rates and continue to make money. The other side of that coin is that Southwest didn't really pay well until after 9/11 when the legacy carriers took their massive pay cuts.

Man, I always thought it was just that everyone elses pay was cut so deeply Southwest was at top by default. Been a long time since I read deep into swa

 

[MusketeerMan]

You also know, of course, that 10 years ago Southwest had the lowest 737 rates in the country and it's only because they haven't taken massive concessions that they have the highest pay rate now, right?

There are two sides to the coin. One is that it's great that Southwest has been able to hold onto its rates and continue to make money. The other side of that coin is that Southwest didn't really pay well until after 9/11 when the legacy carriers took their massive pay cuts.

$50/hour is a HUGE difference, wouldn't you agree? There are concessions and then there is this disparity. Regardless of the concessions taken, don't you think SWA would still be leading the pack by a pretty big margin?

 

[jtrain609]

Southwest didn't take concessions, which is why they have a high rate now. Prior to all the legacy concessions, Southwest had the lowest pay.

And I should make this clear; Southwest pays well NOW because they held onto their rate, 10 years age their rates were piss poor.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Southwest didn't take concessions, which is why they have a high rate now. Prior to all the legacy concessions, Southwest had the lowest pay.

And I should make this clear; Southwest pays well NOW because they held onto their rate, 10 years age their rates were piss poor.

So, 10 years ago, $200/hour for a 73 driver was piss poor? Back it up where Southwest had the lowest pay prior to 9/11. You should already have it ready for me, right?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

$50/hour is a HUGE difference, wouldn't you agree? There are concessions and then there is this disparity. Regardless of the concessions taken, don't you think SWA would still be leading the pack by a pretty big margin?

Narrow body major airline pilots used to make well over what the SWA 737 drivers are making now. A Delta 737 Captain at 12-year pay made $230/hr under Contract '01. SWA was far behind everyone else before the bankruptcies and concessions.

 

[jtrain609]

You know I don't have those scales, actually. You could probably ask Doug for his pre 9/11 scales, as I'm sure he still has the numbers; but it doesn't look like APC keeps that data on their website, so I can't reference it for you. I'm looking for a copy of the 2001 contract for Delta, but I can't find one.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Narrow body major airline pilots used to make well over what the SWA 737 drivers are making now. A Delta 737 Captain at 12-year pay made $230/hr under Contract '01. SWA was far behind everyone else before the bankruptcies and concessions.

So, a non ALPA carrier wouldn't agree to any concessions and all the ALPA carriers did?

Whenever SWA's next contract comes up, it'll lead once again.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Train, PM me your email and I'll send you a copy.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So, a non ALPA carrier wouldn't agree to any concessions and all the ALPA carriers did?

That non-ALPA carrier wasn't in bankruptcy or under threat of bankruptcy. That's just a function of smart management. If the 1113 process was changed (as ALPA is currently working on), then bankruptcy wouldn't be the threat to labor that it has been over the past 7 years.

Whenever SWA's next contract comes up, it'll lead once again.

After the next round of pattern bargaining is complete, I suspect that SWA will be left in the dust once again.

 

[jtrain609]

So, a non ALPA carrier wouldn't agree to any concessions and all the ALPA carriers did?

Whenever SWA's next contract comes up, it'll lead once again.

It's not that simple, and you know that. If you don't know that you've just given away how little you know about this industry, and if you do know it's not that simple then you're not doing anything but being a smartass.

Southwest's management didn't need to come to their pilot group for concessions because they were already lean as it was. Their business model was built from the ground up to be lean, where the legacy carriers were created within regulation and were not designed to make money like Southwest was. Because Southwest was still making money until what? The last year, Southwest management didn't have to come to their pilot group for concessions.

It's not an ALPA vs. non ALPA issue, it's an efficiency issue.

 

[Velocipede]

So, what union carriers are currently hiring?

What does that have to do with the fact that Allegiant and Virgin are currently the non-Union carriers most egregiously undercutting Union contracts? Some people (jtrain) have enough moral courage to bypass non-Union companies regardless of the fact that working there would have been more convienient

I doubt that this guy will be introducing himself as "velocipede on JC" when he asks for a ride. He could spend the time trying to formulate an original thought instead of regurgitating FI crap.

Right you are. Simply because I wouldn't ask you for a ride if you were the last flight out of town. Its only fair. If I'm unwilling to extend UNION NEGOTIATED privileges to non-Union undercutters, how can I in good conscience ask for that privilege from you.

Never fear, you will NEVER see me on your jumpseat until the day you Unionize.

Really? Who's undercutting who Velo? Last time I checked, a SWA 10 year CA makes $50 more an hour than an Alaska 10 year CA flying basically the same equipment.

As usual, you don't get it. Its a question of UNION vs. NON-UNION. All Unions be they ALPA, NPA, IBT, SWAPA help jack the house for the rest of us.

You know Southwest is a union company, and he's going to throw that back in your face as saying that the highest paid 737 drivers in the country are also the most heavily uninionized company out there...right?

Apparently not.

...solely on the fact that SWA isn't ALPA. Velo's one of those "You aint ALPA, you aint nothing" kind of guys and well, to me, that's silly.

Do you ever read posts for comprehension? Or do you just go off on an emotional tangent based on who is writing the post. Of course, I believe that ALPA is the best pilot's Union available. That does not mean I don't appreciate APA, NPA or (hopefully) JBPA. Once again, WE ALL WORK TOGETHER for the betterment of the profession.

Get it yet, Mr. Outsourcing?

Narrow body major airline pilots used to make well over what the SWA 737 drivers are making now. A Delta 737 Captain at 12-year pay made $230/hr under Contract '01. SWA was far behind everyone else before the bankruptcies and concessions.

No, no, no. He completely forgets the role of the bankruptcy courts in the erosion of pilot pay/benefits.

So, a non ALPA carrier wouldn't agree to any concessions and all the ALPA carriers did?

Yet again, you really need to reread some recent history. The most severe recent pay cuts were IMPOSED by the courts, not negotiated.

That non-ALPA carrier wasn't in bankruptcy or under threat of bankruptcy. That's just a function of smart management. If the 1113 process was changed (as ALPA is currently working on), then bankruptcy wouldn't be the threat to labor that it has been over the past 7 years.

PCL, don't confuse Andy with facts. Remember, you should never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it irritates the pig.

 

[pipepatrol]

Sometimes you need to draw a line, kell.

You remind me of Colonel Travis and his line at the Alamo. :rawk:

 

[typhoonpilot]

What does that have to do with the fact that Allegiant and Virgin are currently the non-Union carriers most egregiously undercutting Union contracts? Some people (jtrain) have enough moral courage to bypass non-Union companies regardless of the fact that working there would have been more convienient

Oh, that's rich. So, let me get this straight. If somebody is out of work and no union carriers are presently hiring you would advocate them not taking a job at a non-union carrier? Instead preferring that they remain unemployed? Even when that job could lead them to the necessary qualifications to get hired at a union carrier later down the road?

Further, are you in any way prepared to pay for people with "moral courage" to not take those jobs? Would you and your union brothers set up a fund for them to supplement their unemployment benefits? That would only be fair, as they are helping you to keep your union pay and benefits. Shouldn't those people be compensated for that?

If ALPA would ever start acting like a national union with the benefit of all it's members in mind then I might be inclined to agree with some of your points. But as long as experienced pilots have to start over again at the bottom of a list every time their union carrier has a furlough or goes out of business it's just not going to work the way you hope.

The people without your "moral courage" hired by Allegiant prior to January, 2007 are all pretty much Captains making north of $100K/year. Current upgrade time is around 2 years. Fifteen days off per month on average and home almost every night. Not a bad QOL really.

And I'll say it again. The best jobs I've ever held with the best pay and best QOL have all been at non-union carriers.



Typhoonpilot

 

[jynxyjoe]

At mesaba we actually DO have a volentary fund of which you said we should form. ALPA locals are all asking us to pitch in (I do) so they have some fund available if one member can't get work or has severe finacial difficulties. Obviously its not an ALPA national account but we are trying in our own way.