Anyone ever quit in the middle of the 90 day?

More power to ya.

I'm quite familiar with how ATP works and the 90 days is from PPL to CFI. No disrespect intented to you, either, but an FAA standard CFI should have more experience than being a PPL 90 days ago. And a CFI who, in turn, is teaching the next generation of RJ drivers should have been more than a PPL 90 days ago as well.

Maybe you should ask TH if he's comfortable with guys that will be in the right seat of an RJ being taught by someone who was a PPL 90 days before?

Say hi to TH for me. It's Don Eikenberry. ONT Capt. Tell him I got the offset taxi lines at LGB figured out.
 
DE727UPS said:
Maybe you should ask TH if he's comfortable with guys that will be in the right seat of an RJ being taught by someone who was a PPL 90 days before?

Say hi to TH for me. It's Don Eikenberry. ONT Capt. Tell him I got the offset taxi lines at LGB figured out.
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You Bet :)

For what its worth though, I don't plan on applying to the regionals until I'm well past 200 hours :D :sarcasm:







really, I'm just kidding!!!
 
DE727UPS,

While I don't fully agree with everything your saying, I respect your opinion. You were explaining a few posts back about first hand knowledge and that you seem to have ATP figured out......

This is were my rant will come in....I'm only a little private pilot trying to figure out where to finish all of my ratings. I have done extensive research and I too was very skeptical about schools like ATP. Matter of fact, I almost went to MAPD back in 2001, I'm happy I didn't. I think that one has to be careful of the marketing of schools. As I said, I've done my research. I've met many people who have attended ATP and have received their opinion about the program and they have their pro/cons about it. In the end, they all tell me the same thing. Price is good, flying is great, yada yada...and end up recommending the program....Secondly, I have grown up in the airlines. I'm not trying to gloat about this, but it helps and I have asked my dad and brother to get info about the schools as well, not just ATP. They both fly for a major airline, fwiw. They both have come to the same conclusion, matter of fact they were the ones who originally told me about ATP. I'm certainly not saying ATP is the end all of flight schools but I think they produce a good product.
Now as I said earlier, I've done a lot of research and have visited ATP in a few locations and every time they have impressed me. I went into it armed with a ton of info and I drilled them to death about the program. Needless to say, trying to catch them off guard. So far, they have been the most consistent of any other flight school I have looked into.
The root of this rant is this, people have their opinions and thats fine. However, there are a ton of nay sayers out there (I'm not accusing you of being one) and they will say a ton of bad stuff about the industry, schools and what not. I know there is bad stuff in this industry, but there is also a lot of good. Pay may never be what it was-but it is still a decent career field. I think it is the responsibility of any prospective student to do their homework and see for themselves what they are getting into. You have some outside info on schools, but can you go beyond the website and really give an honest review/opionion about the school. The website is somewhat confusing, but again it boils down to homework/research. A lot of people on here will knock schools/programs and whatever but really have no facts about it-it is usually just an opinion. Thats fine, but I could see how discouraging it can be to others who are trying to figure this stuff out who don't have any history of aviation.
Sorry for the rant, as I said I respect your opinion but maybe a little more research is necessary. Oh and by the way, you don't go from PPL-CFII/MEI in 90 days...I believe you are referring to the 90 program better known as the airline career program. You have to have a PPL w/ 85hrs. FWIW
 
Captain_Bob said:
I think we are getting mixed up in the symantics of it...
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Agreed!


stuckingfk said:
I'm not sure where you're getting this 56 day thing.
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Attached is the image of where he gets this from. If you subscribe to the Jepp Airway Manual they only send you revisions as needed. However, if you buy Jepp plates in a single edition with no revisions, they operate on the same 56 day cycle as the NOS plates do.
 
"but can you go beyond the website and really give an honest review/opionion about the school"

Why? I believe the website should give accurate, infallable, information about the school. No grey area's. No BS. A link to JC at their site would do wonders for my attitue towards ATP. I used to argue this with the DCA crowd with "being owned my Delta means everything". Not much difference from that and "get jet experience with major airline pilots at ATP".

"you don't go from PPL-CFII/MEI in 90 days"

I meant to say you go from being a PPL, to being a CFI, in 90 days. Not a fan of that. Don't need inside info or first hand experience to form an opinion on that.

So....let's summarize. I'm not a fan of the 90 day program or some of ATP's marketing claims at their website. I think it's not a bad place to go for the CFI ratings as they do a lot of CFI's and it's really a license to learn, anyway. The "go at your own pace" program to train at ATP I don't have any problem with. Gives you time to become a seasoned pilot.

I think there are benefits to training at a smaller flight school because you're out of a "big academy bubble". For some, though, the structure of the big academy is what they prefer, or the name, or maybe the local school just can't deliever and they need to look elsewhere.

I'm simply about truth in advertising and competency in flight training.
 
DE727UPS said:
"

I meant to say you go from being a PPL, to being a CFI, in 90 days. Not a fan of that. Don't need inside info or first hand experience to form an opinion on that.

So....let's summarize. I'm not a fan of the 90 day program or some of ATP's marketing claims at their website. I think it's not a bad place to go for the CFI ratings as they do a lot of CFI's and it's really a license to learn, anyway. The "go at your own pace" program to train at ATP I don't have any problem with. Gives you time to become a seasoned pilot.

I'm simply about truth in advertising and competency in flight training.
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I don't really understand your analogy why 90 day is worse than self paced FBOs. In the end you still come out with 250 hours and a CFI ticket, the difference is one you fly every day and the other you fly once in a while. Where would you actually becomed seasoned in the self paced method?? And by the way ATP's there is absolutely no BS on their site, they really don't need to have any BS, they got students waiting for training dates to open up. What matters is results.
 
You are 100% correct about the web site. There shouldn't be any questions, however one should go beyond what they read and gather as much information as they can to get a no BS assessment.

It is my opinion that a school can produce a good/competint safe pilot. Hell the military does it all the time and these guys don't have a million hours.

ATP must be doing something right in order to have connections with some of these regionals. Naturally, some of them suck, but others are some of the so called better regionals. I haven't given them any money yet, but I do plan on attending ATP. As I posted earlier, I have done my research and I believe that they have a good program. If these new cfi's were doing something wrong one would think that ATP wouldn't be doing as well as they are.

One thing I think we can agree on is this, I don't think one should graduate and then try to go straight to a regional. One needs to learn as much as they can and in doing so will only help themselves later. As we all know, this won't change as long as the airlines keep reducing the hiring mins. Why would one want to stay and instruct when they could be sitting right seat in an RJ?

BTW 727, not many options in GEG. Felts is having issues, xnair is giving spokane airways a run for their money....
 
"Hell the military does it all the time and these guys don't have a million hours"

I wouldn't go there. The military has a selection process and a washout process that makes it work. You wanna compare that to ATP? Go ahead, make my day....

"ATP must be doing something right in order to have connections with some of these regionals"

Gulfstream, JetU, and MAPD make the same claim. At least some of the ATP guys have the CFI ratings and some time as a CFI. That's a plus.

"BTW 727, not many options in GEG"

Whatever....

There are always options if you seek them out.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Hell the military does it all the time and these guys don't have a million hours"

I wouldn't go there. The military has a selection process and a washout process that makes it work. You wanna compare that to ATP? Go ahead, make my day....

"ATP must be doing something right in order to have connections with some of these regionals"

Gulfstream, JetU, and MAPD make the same claim. At least some of the ATP guys have the CFI ratings and some time as a CFI. That's a plus.

"BTW 727, not many options in GEG"

Whatever....

There are always options if you seek them out.
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Look,

All I'm trying to do is to present the other side, which you apparently have no interest in. The military does have a selection process and whatnot, trust me I know. I considered that route, I decided that it wasn't for me, but I know. I guess you believe that the FAA and these examiners just sign the ticket and these students are on their way. I find that hard to believe. As I said earlier, I have done MY research and there is nothing in GEG that is worth the money and time.

One more question for you. Like someone posted earlier, what is the difference in going to the local FBO and taking your sweet time to get say 250hrs vs. going to some school, doesn't have to be ATP, and flying 5-6 days a week learning and getting to be extremely proficient? Flying that much vs. 3 days a week seems to be way more helpful.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I met a military pilot who's son went to ATP. Kind of interesting don't you think???

But whatever..........
 
I still disagree with you Don. I respect your position and realize I am but a lowly student pilot with 60 hours arguing against the great wisdom of the UPS Widebody pilot, but I do have a bit of opinion to add:

Though my path will no longer include the ACPP, I still believe it is a powerful program for two reasons: Standardized training in an immersion environment. Nothing beats either.

Flying at my local FBO, different instructors will differ on the way they instruct and WHAT they instruct. I have one telling me to have the strobes on night and day, and the other laughing about it and saying to keep them off. At ATP, the only way low timers could train so successfully is with a VERY standardized training program; one they have been through themselves and then taught how to teach it in a standard way….just like the military

The airlines LOVE schools like ATP because they know EXACTLY what they are getting. A guy, like me, trained at an FBO is a bit more of a mystery. I strongly feel that I would be a better pilot if I was able to attend the ACPP versus the local FBO. I am not saying that the FBO won’t do the trick, but you have to be extremely motivated and capable of self-study, and in many cases, self-learning to figure out and fill in the gaps that may have been missed in training.

ATP, as Bob has mentioned several times, is TOTAL immersion into the world of flying. NOTHING beats that type of learning environment. I experienced it during aircrew training in the AF. At my local school, I fly 10 hours a week, if the weather cooperates and that damned president Bush is not on his 20th vacation this year. I work 50 hours a week as a Logistics Analyst and have a household to maintain as well. If I don’t fly for 4 or 5 days, it takes me a bit of time to get back “With” it.

And of course the argument of the military always comes into this conversation:
"ATP is modeled after the way the military trains”
"Yeah but the military does not just take someones’ money and let them in”

The second does not negate the first however. The military is successful with their training program because it IS a standardized immersion program. Bad apples still make it through. There is little to no washout for Guard and Reservists either; once you get the slot for UPT, you really have to mess up to get washed out. And remember, these guys and girls are going to be flying fighters, bombers, and heavy cargo planes all over the world, with just as much, or less, time than civilian pilots. My cousin is a 130 pilot for a guard unit. He has been for 3 years. His total time is 600 hours. He is now headed for C-5 school. So a guy with 600 hours will be flying the 3rd largest plane in the world, all over the world, into hot zones, mid-air refueling, from the right and left seat!

A guy at ATP will be getting the privilege to instruct in the lightest of twins, and then, with the same time as my cuz or more, will become a right-seater in a small jet or turboprop making short hops in the US only. Though he will be proficient enough to turn the dials and fly the plane, it will take at least 2 years before he is deemed competent enough to become the commander of that aircraft.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
I still disagree with you Don. I respect your position and realize I am but a lowly student pilot with 60 hours arguing against the great wisdom of the UPS Widebody pilot, but I do have a bit of opinion to add:

Though my path will no longer include the ACPP, I still believe it is a powerful program for two reasons: Standardized training in an immersion environment. Nothing beats either.

Flying at my local FBO, different instructors will differ on the way they instruct and WHAT they instruct. I have one telling me to have the strobes on night and day, and the other laughing about it and saying to keep them off. At ATP, the only way low timers could train so successfully is with a VERY standardized training program; one they have been through themselves and then taught how to teach it in a standard way….just like the military

The airlines LOVE schools like ATP because they know EXACTLY what they are getting. A guy, like me, trained at an FBO is a bit more of a mystery. I strongly feel that I would be a better pilot if I was able to attend the ACPP versus the local FBO. I am not saying that the FBO won’t do the trick, but you have to be extremely motivated and capable of self-study, and in many cases, self-learning to figure out and fill in the gaps that may have been missed in training.

ATP, as Bob has mentioned several times, is TOTAL immersion into the world of flying. NOTHING beats that type of learning environment. I experienced it during aircrew training in the AF. At my local school, I fly 10 hours a week, if the weather cooperates and that damned president Bush is not on his 20th vacation this year. I work 50 hours a week as a Logistics Analyst and have a household to maintain as well. If I don’t fly for 4 or 5 days, it takes me a bit of time to get back “With” it.

And of course the argument of the military always comes into this conversation:
"ATP is modeled after the way the military trains”
"Yeah but the military does not just take someones’ money and let them in”

The second does not negate the first however. The military is successful with their training program because it IS a standardized immersion program. Bad apples still make it through. There is little to no washout for Guard and Reservists either; once you get the slot for UPT, you really have to mess up to get washed out. And remember, these guys and girls are going to be flying fighters, bombers, and heavy cargo planes all over the world, with just as much, or less, time than civilian pilots. My cousin is a 130 pilot for a guard unit. He has been for 3 years. His total time is 600 hours. He is now headed for C-5 school. So a guy with 600 hours will be flying the 3rd largest plane in the world, all over the world, into hot zones, mid-air refueling, from the right and left seat!

A guy at ATP will be getting the privilege to instruct in the lightest of twins, and then, with the same time as my cuz or more, will become a right-seater in a small jet or turboprop making short hops in the US only. Though he will be proficient enough to turn the dials and fly the plane, it will take at least 2 years before he is deemed competent enough to become the commander of that aircraft.
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For someone with 60 hours, you've got it all figured out.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
I never said that....AT ALL.
But seeing as we are on the topic....do you?
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I think Smitty's just saying that you made some very strong statements (as highlighted).

Most likely a well placed "IMHO" or "based on my research it seems that"... usually prevents folks from making the accusation that you "know it all". ;)

Bob
 
Good point. Sorry. Bad week at work for me and Dubya's visit to Crawford has ruined my weekend flying.

Apologies Smittey. They are strong statements and I only meant them as an opinion.
 
"Flying at my local FBO, different instructors will differ on the way they instruct and WHAT they instruct"

You could argue that's a good thing. Perhaps your strobe question is a bad example, but flying with different guys with different backgrounds can be an asset. You learn something different from each one.

"At ATP, the only way low timers could train so successfully is with a VERY standardized training program"

No disagreement, there. But I don't buy that the end result of ACPP is a superior product because of that. You still got a guy that lacks real world experience and any kind of seasoning teaching the airline pilots of tomorrow.

ACPP works, the system works, guys get hired quick, everybody is happy. I just refuse to believe that the time taken to gain experience doesn't count for something. I know it does. Don't need first hand knowledge to know that. Sorry I have such high standards and expect so much in an airline pilot.
 
So forget the whole flight school approach. How much real world experience would one get if they owned a plane and buzzed around for a while just to build time? I have friends that did that and no instructing needed. Is their experience any worse or different than anyone else's?
 
SmitteyB said:
I believe ATP puts out some good, well rounded pilots-like the kinds of Airdale and one of my favorites, CaptainBob.
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Why Thank You! ;)



DE727UPS said:
No disagreement, there. But I don't buy that the end result of ACPP is a superior product because of that. You still got a guy that lacks real world experience and any kind of seasoning teaching the airline pilots of tomorrow.

ACPP works, the system works, guys get hired quick, everybody is happy. I just refuse to believe that the time taken to gain experience doesn't count for something. I know it does. Don't need first hand knowledge to know that. Sorry I have such high standards and expect so much in an airline pilot.
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No need to apologize for taking pride in your profession Don. Being prior military, I appreciate the fact that ATP is very standardized. I might not have had a lot of "experience" flying around in the clouds shooting approaches with my students when I was a CFI there, but I had discipline to follow procedures and checklists to get through it. And in my opinion, keeping in mind I was a heavy wx crew instructor in the CG, sometimes having discipline and standardization in place can substitute for experience.

I remember trying to help my student navigate some bad weather on a night IFR x/c. I didn't have much "experience" with that, but I followed our company policy and procedures and we were able to avoid danger and land safely.

I was giving a student an IPC with 400 overcast in rain and winds 10-15kts. We shot an ILS approach where the student started to get disoriented and wouldn't relinguish control of the aircraft. I didn't have any "experience" with this situation, but I reacted based on my previous training and follow standard procedures. We survived.

I was coming in to land at RDU with a x/c partner. We pick up windshear and started loosing airspeed fast. I didn't have any experience, but I reacted based on my training and procedures and we lived to see another day.

I shut down the left engine during training with a student. The engine was reluctant to airstart. I didn't have any experience with engines not starting during an airstart, but I followed procedures based on the standardization of my training and I was able to restart the engine at 2000AGL while on approach. We landed safely.

My point Don, is that you use the word experience like its a red headed step child. You throw it around and slap it up against the wall. But no matter what kind of experience you have, there will come a day where you will rely on procedures and standardization to bail you out because your experience will not be enough. I have many more "experiences" like the ones mentioned above, they have helped me develop confidence, but they have not caused me to deviate from standardization and procedures.

Why do we read checklists everytime we fly even after we have the checklist memorized from doing it so many times? Discipline and standardization. I've been flying with Captains who can recite every single item on every single checklist. But when we run checklists, they have the checklist in front of them. With their experience, can't we just run the checklist by memory?

In initial 121 training, we watch countless videos on the breakdown of CRM. I can remember 3-4 situations where the Captain, with not thousands of hours, but ten thousand hours of experience, deviated from the standardization and procedures implimented and the aircraft crashed. British Airways comes to mind on that one. The Captain disabled the stick pusher, the aircraft stalled. Experience is a two way street that can help you or hurt you. Thats why airlines have procedures and standardized callouts.

I just don't buy your experience excuse anymore. Experience in hand flying approaches and aircraft control? I agree. Experience working with ATC, busy airports? I agree. Experience with weather? I agree. But how much "experience" does it take to fly an airplane and learn how to talk on the radio? I think every pilot needs some experience having responsibility in the air, so in that respect I disagree with 250hr pilots flying passengers. But even just a few months of instructing time can rapidly change that. You will be forever learning and gaining experience as a Professional pilot. Today I flew 2 out of 4 legs, all solid IMC the whole way, shot 1 full ILS approach and 1 ILS with vectors, I also had my best landing yet in the Beech, CL, TDZE and so soft you could barely feel the mains touch. And that was with a 15kt crosswind at LGA.
 
"I just don't buy your experience excuse anymore."

Suit yerself...

There is no substitute for time in the seat flying an airplane to make you a better pilot. Training has it's place, but to rely on that as a substitute, or replacement for actual experience, for the low time guys going into jets these days doesn't paint a good picture in my eyes.
 
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