Anyone ever quit in the middle of the 90 day?

DE727UPS said:
"I just don't buy your experience excuse anymore."

Suit yerself...

There is no substitute for time in the seat flying an airplane to make you a better pilot. Training has it's place, but to rely on that as a substitute, or replacement for actual experience, for the low time guys going into jets these days doesn't paint a good picture in my eyes.
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100% agreement.
 
--200 hours in the seat of the airplane flying is the same 200 hrs whether you get it in 10 months or 10 years.
 
DE727UPS said:
"I just don't buy your experience excuse anymore."

Suit yerself...

There is no substitute for time in the seat flying an airplane to make you a better pilot. Training has it's place, but to rely on that as a substitute, or replacement for actual experience, for the low time guys going into jets these days doesn't paint a good picture in my eyes.
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I should have phrased that differently, reading over back over it, I wasn't totally correct.

You are right, there is no substitute for actual time flying in the airplane. What I meant was, the lack of experience can be supplemented by training procedures. Its what we did all the time in the Coast Guard. Guys could get heavy weather certified on the 47' motor life boat, with no real experience operating in heavy weather, strictly based on training procedures implemented. I was certified as a crewman without ever operating in seas greater then 12', yet I was certified up to 20'. When I did finally experience 20' seas, I relied on my experience operating in less then that combined with the training backround. Its all relative. Military aviation operates the same way. Guys are flying single seat fighters into battle zones with no real experience in doing so, but they have been trained properly.
 
DE727UPS said:
"I just don't buy your experience excuse anymore."

Suit yerself...

There is no substitute for time in the seat flying an airplane to make you a better pilot. Training has it's place, but to rely on that as a substitute, or replacement for actual experience, for the low time guys going into jets these days doesn't paint a good picture in my eyes.
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I agree with that. What I disagree with, is your assertion that an ATP trained pilot is substandard because he had a PPL 90 days prior. How is that different from a freshly minted, FBO trained CFI with the same 250 hours who took two years to get those 250 hours? Whose experience is more fresh? Who has more experience flying real cross countries in real IFR? Who has time in a simulator receiving failures that are impossible to do safely in the real aircraft?

I've been told at two different regionals that they preferred ATP grads because they consistenly did better in their training and had a significantly higher pass rate. I've also received numberous compliments from captains that I flew like a much more experienced pilot when they found out how many hours I have.

I think the lower hiring mins at the regionals is not a good thing for safety. However, in comparing a guy with 1,000 who did ATP's ACPP and then instructed for them over an FBO guy with the same 1,000 hours, who took five years to get that time and did it doing stalls and steep turns in the pattern in a 150, I'll take the ATP guy day in and day out. He has much better more useful experience, which is what you accuse them of lacking.
 
I think the lower hiring mins at the regionals is not a good thing for safety. However, in comparing a guy with 1,000 who did ATP's ACPP and then instructed for them over an FBO guy with the same 1,000 hours, who took five years to get that time and did it doing stalls and steep turns in the pattern in a 150, I'll take the ATP guy day in and day out. He has much better more useful experience, which is what you accuse them of lacking.[/QUOTE]

Well put, my thoughts exactly. :yeahthat:
 
"I think the lower hiring mins at the regionals is not a good thing for safety."

Agreed.

"He has much better more useful experience, which is what you accuse them of lacking"

I believe I accuse the ACPP person, who was a PPL 90 days ago and a CFI now, of not having the seasoning and background to be training the next generation of airline pilots. A FBO trained CFI with 250 hours has....250 hours. Not too impressive. This isn't someone with 1000 hours, either ATP or not. You're casting a wide net in your post.

I simply think the seasoning process of a pilot who gets his ratings over a period of time, and outside the bubble, gives him him experiences he could never get at ATP, and makes him a more well rounded pilot, overall. Obviously, the airlines don't really care as long as folks don't fail out of training, so it's a moot point.

As a CFI since 1980 and a UPS Capt today, I believe the bar has been lowered too far. That the ATP forum folks don't agree isn't much of a surprise....
 
"I simply think the seasoning process of a pilot who gets his ratings over a period of time, and outside the bubble, gives him him experiences he could never get at ATP, and makes him a more well rounded pilot, overall. Obviously, the airlines don't really care as long as folks don't fail out of training, so it's a moot point."


I don't agree with that at all........you never know what your going to get at an FBO. The ones I have looked into couldn't give me a straight answer on anything. I guess that is a good "experience" in the business world we live in! What experiences would one get that make him/her a better "more well rounded pilot?"

I have a lot of respect for you and what you have accomplished in your career, however it seems to me that you really don't like/approve of ATP or the like. Thats fine, just seems like your interested in arguing a point just to argue it. Your argument above is just odd, I really don't get why you are opposed to these schools?

I'm done debating this point with you. I'll just agree to disagree.
:banghead:
 
DE727UPS said:
I simply think the seasoning process of a pilot who gets his ratings over a period of time, and outside the bubble, gives him him experiences he could never get at ATP, and makes him a more well rounded pilot, overall. Obviously, the airlines don't really care as long as folks don't fail out of training, so it's a moot point.
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Wow that's a bold statement, what kind of experience do you have at ATP. You must have some to make that kind of a statement.. Most students that have been through here and a hand full of airlines would probably disagree with you on that one.
 
"however it seems to me that you really don't like/approve of ATP or the like"

I don't like the idea of a guy going from PPL to CFI in 90 days. Other than that, I have no problem with ATP outside some of the marketing BS. I actually recommend them for the CFI ratings as they do a lot of CFI's and smaller FBO's rarely can compete with that.

"I'm done debating this point with you. I'll just agree to disagree"

Works for me....

"what kind of experience do you have at ATP"

What kind of experience do I need? I've been a CFI since 1980, own three light aircraft, and have a job as a 7576 Capt at UPS. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion on pilot training. ATP or otherwise.
 
DE727UPS said:
"however it seems to me that you really don't like/approve of ATP or the like"

I don't like the idea of a guy going from PPL to CFI in 90 days. Other than that, I have no problem with ATP outside some of the marketing BS. I actually recommend them for the CFI ratings as they do a lot of CFI's and smaller FBO's rarely can compete with that.

"I'm done debating this point with you. I'll just agree to disagree"

Works for me....

"what kind of experience do you have at ATP"

What kind of experience do I need? I've been a CFI since 1980, own three light aircraft, and have a job as a 7576 Capt at UPS. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion on pilot training. ATP or otherwise.
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One more thing,
you seem to know it all regarding ATP from just reading their website. Since you apparently don't need to do any other research....

As I have said this whole time, I respect you as a pilot and your accomplishments. However, maybe you can't deal with change and the other routes to get into aviation. That seems very apparent to me.

Maybe I can offer you a little advise, do a little more homework on some of these schools before you chime in and give your advise and pretend to be the "expert" you are, esspecially on ATP.

I'm finished.....
 
The thing is... (and Don makes a good point about this)... is that the website should be a valuable and trusting resource that anybody can go to to get the "facts".

However... just like any business... they list the facts that are beneficial to them.

Mcdonalds doesn't advertise that Subway is better for you... and they don't point you in the direction of online forums where people talk about the good and bad of different fast food eateries... ;)

It does come down to business practices and marketing for any business to survive. That's the "commercialization" that Don doesn't like. Can't blame him for that. Nor can I blame any of the larger flight schools for marketing programs that do work.

Bob
 
"is that the website should be a valuable and trusting resource that anybody can go to to get the "facts"."

Yep. And I don't think the teaser "jet experience with major airline pilots" for one ride in a Slowtation really cuts it. But to each his own...

See....I got experience in the biz and I'm able to form an opinion about that without ever setting foot in an ATP facility. See how that works?
 
Fly_Unity said:
where Im at, one of the instructors that went to a 4 year flight program was telling me that the back wing only produces upward lift, He said he never heard of it producing negative lift, which is telling me that he didnt have a clue on how Stability works, affect of CG location, stall, etc. I believe that all schools has its good and bad pilots.
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Great example of how your knowledge level is directly proportional to how hard you study regardless of what kind of school you go to. Every school does have its good and bad pilots. I'm surprised that someone from a four-year could be that stupid. Don't they have to take classes and tests at those schools?

They probably gloss over the basics of flight since nobody seems to have a clue how wings lift (especially the FAA in the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge). It's Downwash downwash downwash, darn it! Incidentally I am on a quest to eradicate the equal transit time theory from the face of the earth... the FAA book has backed away from the "Low pressure causes the lift" & equal transit time theory and gone in the direction of Newton. However they are totally non-commital to either camp and come across as completely confused themselves (which the authors clearly ARE).

So... has there ever been a thread on how wings lift here?

Flying is not rocket science and there many FAA, Jeppesen, and other books out there that explain it in black and white IF you read them all cover to cover (a personal decision that has nothing to do with ATP, Riddle, UND, etc.).
Choosing to attain this knowledge means that an instructor from ATP or wherever can be a great instructor when it comes to knowledge. Due to the cross country phase of the program with no autopilot you also have great actual experience in the IFR system.
From a customer service point of view I am apalled with ATPs .5 hr spin "training" flights. Because I already had the knowledge/understanding about spin recovery/avoidance its not a safety issue for me- just a point of customer service-based annoyance,

HOWEVER the MAIN PROBLEM WITH ATP is that people get pushed through whether they are ready for a checkride or not. I saw them. If some examiner passes someone they should not on a ride that person goes on. It is possible for someone to pass a ride who is not really ready to go out there and exercise the priviledges of that ticket. ATPs problem is that they place 100% of the decision to pass or fail (the only way to get additional training) on the examiner. When ATP instructors endorse an applicant they are only endorsing the fact that they are pretty sure they can pass the check ride.
You get an allotted amount of time for training and then you go to the ride. To get additional training time you would have to pink the ride and then get another flight.

For most of us these are issues we don't have to deal with, but the people who are just skating along expecting to have their hand held- failing oral exams etc. until they "get through" ARE GETTING THROUGH. And I think that is scary.

Generally speaking ATP is not a flight school as I'd think of a typical FBO flight school with pre and post flight briefing and groundschool and times when your instructor hangs around and imparts knowledge and experience- the CFI's are too overworked and also burned out. It is checkride training.

All of the above is based on my specific experience. I did encounter excellent instructors at ATP. That is just thte thing.... you drop $45,000 and your customer service expereience is dictated by your burned-out instructor working 12 hour days. There are no bosses- there is no oversight.

Again, I encountered a couple EXCELLENT instructors at ATP- along with guys who were burned out and needed to move on.

Hopefully this isn't too rant-y and helps someone.
 
DE727UPS said:
"is that the website should be a valuable and trusting resource that anybody can go to to get the "facts"."

Yep. And I don't think the teaser "jet experience with major airline pilots" for one ride in a Slowtation really cuts it. But to each his own...

See....I got experience in the biz and I'm able to form an opinion about that without ever setting foot in an ATP facility. See how that works?
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I was really excited about the Citation ride back in December 2005. Really excited. But it was with Ernie and he pushed my buttons the whole time (I didn't realize he was messing with me).
At one point while passing through FL 190 I realized that I hadn't set the FO side altimeter to 29.92. As soon as I did it he started going off on me about how he wanted that altimeter set to the airport baro setting (which I've later learned is illegal). My training partner told me later that during one of the times he messed with me Ernie looked back and smiled about how he was flustering me.

" Wow here I am finally flying a jet and it SUCKS".

Yeah I forgot about that until now...
 
"It is possible for someone to pass a ride who is not really ready to go out there and exercise the priviledges of that ticket"

That reminds me of a story....

When I was 19 (in 1980), I took my CFI ride and was given the gift of passing it (thanks Neal Karmen). I was trained at the local FBO by a guy who had never done a CFI before. I wasn't very well prepared for the ride, and it's quite a difficult ride. This is why I suggest a larger academy type school for the CFI because they are used to getting guys through the CFI.

Anyhow, after I finished the ride, the examiner told me I needed more experience and seasoning before I actually tried to teach someone (you guys ever here me say that before?). He said he went ahead and passed me because he knew I was going to Riddle for a couple of years, would be doing more flying there, and picking up my CFII, before I'd be turned loose in the world of part 61 flight training.

I'm just not real impressed with a system where one can go from an 85 hour PPL, to CFI, to teaching, in 90 days.

"Ernie looked back and smiled about how he was flustering me"

Sounds like they had you singled out. You must have complained once too often...
 
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