Anyone ever quit in the middle of the 90 day?

As far as I know, I've never flown with an ATP grad. Which is kinda weird considering how many there must be out there. Not sure why that is.

I have a problem with ANY CFI who was a PPL 90 days ago teaching the next generation of 90 day wonders. Makes for a lot of inbreeding and a lack of real world experience with ATP CFI's. Has nothing to do with ATP, really, it's just a bad idea in general for someone who is teaching the next generation to have so little seasoning as a pilot.
 
DE727UPS said:
I have a problem with ANY CFI who was a PPL 90 days ago teaching the next generation of 90 day wonders. Makes for a lot of inbreeding and a lack of real world experience with ATP CFI's. Has nothing to do with ATP, really, it's just a bad idea in general for someone who is teaching the next generation to have so little seasoning as a pilot.
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I'm sorry but you must really have no idea what goes on at ATP.
 
SmitteyB said:
What are you talking about? Subscription or not- they're still good for 56 days. NOS or Jepp.
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Not quite... ;)

fly8slep said:
I'm sorry but you must really have no idea what goes on at ATP.
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He has a decent idea... him and I have had many spirited discussions over the last few years. I haven't changed his mind much... but at least he does have some idea of what does go on.

The fact is... ATP can certainly be a place where "Professional inbreeding" can occur. Just like the military, the airlines, the large scale academies, the mid-size flight schools, the small scale FBO's. You come in... you are taught... you leave... you teach it the way you were taught to teach it. Simple as that.

But... not quite.

I have always believed that it boils down to the individual. What they brought in... what they learned along the way... and what they ultimately take with them after the program... whether or not they stayed at ATP or went to another flight school to teach.

I didn't teach 90 day guys... I taught ex... or soon to be ex-military guys to fly a recip for the first time in their lives and to help them successfully pass their first over FAA checkride. ATP helped me learn the knoweldge base to do that... gave me a huge amount of my skill base... but... I brought in the majority of my value base.

I was not the instructor my instructor was... in fact... I was not the instructor any of the instructors that I had along the way were. I was 90% who I was before I went into the program... followed by who I became as a result of taking several good things from several different good people I met along the way.

I believe that holds true for most everyone... military, civilian, big flight school, small FBO... You get out of it what you put into it. Ultimately... you are still a large pecentage of who you were BEFORE you went in. That for some people unfortunately... can be a bad thing.

Bob
 
SmitteyB said:
What are you talking about? Subscription or not- they're still good for 56 days. NOS or Jepp.

Those dates on those plates are important.
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Careful now what you say, your looking like your the one who dont know what your talking about. :)



I flown with alot of ATP guys, some are good, some are not so good, as far as an ATP instructors, they are all pretty much awesome pilots. My instructor at ATP was a 12 year Instructor and I wouldn't trade anything in the world for the knowledge he gave me.

where Im at, one of the instructors that went to a 4 year flight program was telling me that the back wing only produces upward lift, He said he never heard of it producing negative lift, which is telling me that he didnt have a clue on how Stability works, affect of CG location, stall, etc. I believe that all schools has its good and bad pilots.
 
SmitteyB said:
What are you talking about? Subscription or not- they're still good for 56 days. NOS or Jepp.

Those dates on those plates are important.
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Lol.

Kind of embarassing when you're chastising someone for not knowing something when you don't know yourself.

Jeppesen puts out revision packets. If it hasn't been revised in 56 days, it doesn't put out a new chart. There are enroute charts in our world subscription that haven't been updated since 2004.

The only reason I think people hate Jepps, well it's because they're the ones doing the revisions, ie me.

Don't quote me on the NOS since I don't use them, but if a chart is past the 56 day revision, you can compare that with a newer chart. If it's the same number on the side, you're good to go. You can also call FSS, check out the FAA website, AOPA, etc.
 
SmitteyB said:
What are you talking about? Subscription or not- they're still good for 56 days. NOS or Jepp.
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Captain_Bob said:
Not quite... ;)
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SmitteyB said:
Elaborate.
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Jepp plates's only update when there is an actual change to that specific plate. If there is no change... then no update.
jeppesen.com said:
Revision Service
Revision service starts you off with a complete set of current Initial charts for the geographic area you request. Your Initial charts are then kept up to date by revisions sent automatically every two weeks. With each revision, you simply replace, add, or delete specific charts according to the included revision letter.
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When you start doing revisions with Jepp's you'll see what I'm talking about. Your company won't just give you a whole new Jepp pack every 56 days. That's cost prohibitive.

Only the Government NOS charts do the every 56 day revision.

Here's a few examples from my Jepp plate's:
  • ILS 26L for IAH is dated 17-JUN-05
  • Beaumont Four Departure out of IAH is dated 30-JUL-04
  • ILS 11 for EWR is dated 03-JUN-05
  • Shaff Five Arrival into EWR is dated 29-AUG-03
These are obviously more than 56 days old... ;)

There have been no changes, additions, or subtractions in procedures, communications, notes, etc... for those plates since the effective date on them... so they are still valid. So basically... we don't get updates unless there is a specific reason for an update.

Bob
 
"I'm sorry but you must really have no idea what goes on at ATP"

I have several sources of "what I know"...

One would be the ATP website. I take issue with some things they say in an effort to sell the profession, and sell their program, to those who know don't know any better. For example:

"Prepare for an airline pilot career with an emphasis on nationwide flying experience in multi-engine aircraft. Includes 190 hours multi-engine experience, actual jet aircraft experience,..."

What they don't mention here is that of the 190 hours multi, a good bit of it is not "flight time", as it's in a ground trainer, and another good bit of it is using a loophole in the FAR's where by two pilots can log PIC time, simultaneously. This practice is looked down upon by a good deal of professionals in the industry.

Also, "actual jet aircraft experience", while sounding great, is no more than a hop in the right seat of a Slowtation. It's not like you really get any useful "jet aircraft experience" while going through the ATP program.

But, here's another claim "Only ATP students fly with major airline pilots for actual jet flight experience". Wow, that sounds great. You get one hop with a "major airline pilot" in a Citation. IMpressive....

Another source for ATP info is my buddy who went there. He got an interview at a big (very well regarded) flight school in Seattle cause I'm friends with a guy who used to work there. Word was, they don't normally hire "ATP guys" because of past experience... Just what I was told. I don't make this stuff up.

There is a fair amout of folks who see ATP as a pilot mill where they use DE's who "ensure a low-stress checkride". It's more at APC than here but not everyone is so enamored with the place as you'd like to think.

Lastly, I don't believe it's possible to take a guy from PPL to competent CFI in 90 days. I think I just said that up a few posts and you didn't really give me any more than a one liner comeback. Capt Bob's been trying for years to get me to keep my ATP views to myself. You'll have to do much better than than a one liner....
 
DE727UPS said:
Capt Bob's been trying for years to get me to keep my ATP views to myself.
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You must have me confused with someone else...

To my knowledge... I've not tried to shut you or anyone else up on this forum... even when folks post their negative experiences I've engaged in conversation to find out their point of view... It's actually good for all to see it. I don't try to "sweep it under the rug".

I've always thought that you and I had a fairly respectful demeanor towards each other no matter how much our views may differ on a few things... but the more you post comments like that above... the more I think you just like the "Drama" of it.

Bob
 
DE727UPS said:
Capt Bob's been trying for years to get me to keep my ATP views to myself.
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Ouch! Low blow.

If anything, Capt Bob has welcomed all viewpoints, good or bad about ATP or any topic on this board. Now, maybe your guys have sent private email to each other that we don't know about, but I don't think That's Capt Bob's style.
 
stuckingfk said:
Lol.

Kind of embarassing when you're chastising someone for not knowing something when you don't know yourself.

Jeppesen puts out revision packets. If it hasn't been revised in 56 days, it doesn't put out a new chart. There are enroute charts in our world subscription that haven't been updated since 2004.
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Thank-you for the ground lesson, we all know this. Needless to say, even on the Jepessen revisions, the dates printed are still validity dates. Sure you can compare numbers, thats fine- but the validity dates are 56 days.

Yes you can have a chart thats dated 12-JUN-91 (That is valid), but the dates on the chart were still 56 days.

The ATP instructor should have known that.

Kind of embarassing when you're chastising someone, without knowing what the argument was about.
 
DE727UPS said:
"

But, here's another claim "Only ATP students fly with major airline pilots for actual jet flight experience". Wow, that sounds great. You get one hop with a "major airline pilot" in a Citation. IMpressive....

Another source for ATP info is my buddy who went there. He got an interview at a big (very well regarded) flight school in Seattle cause I'm friends with a guy who used to work there. Word was, they don't normally hire "ATP guys" because of past experience... Just what I was told. I don't make this stuff up.

There is a fair amout of folks who see ATP as a pilot mill where they use DE's who "ensure a low-stress checkride". It's more at APC than here but not everyone is so enamored with the place as you'd like to think.

Lastly, I don't believe it's possible to take a guy from PPL to competent CFI in 90 days. I think I just said that up a few posts and you didn't really give me any more than a one liner comeback. Capt Bob's been trying for years to get me to keep my ATP views to myself. You'll have to do much better than than a one liner....
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727UPS, thanks for you opinion, do you have anything other than second hand info? Honestly, the only way you would get any acknowledgement of what you're saying is if you were an ATP student yourself. As I said in the previous post, you have no idea what goes on at ATP. And by the way, one of our "low streess examiners" flys for a certain brown package company. I'm sure he'd be more than willing to explain to you what it is that he actually does during the checkrides. From the time I've been here the average pass rate for checkrides have been about 60%.
 
SmitteyB said:
Thank-you for the ground lesson, we all know this. Needless to say, even on the Jepessen revisions, the dates printed are still validity dates. Sure you can compare numbers, thats fine- but the validity dates are 56 days.

Yes you can have a chart thats dated 12-JUN-91 (That is valid), but the dates on the chart were still 56 days.

The ATP instructor should have known that.

Kind of embarassing when you're chastising someone, without knowing what the argument was about.
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Sorry, JEPPS are good till revised. No 56 days.

Read what Bob wrote and what everyone else said. You're wrong about Jepps.
 
I think we are getting mixed up in the symantics of it...

Basically... The Gov. puts out new "volumes" of plates every 56 days. They print an expiration date on the cover of those volumes of NOS charts. It doesn't mean that every approach, SID, STAR & -9 in every volume has had a change or update in the past 56 days. It's just the Gov's way of creating a cost effective, pain & hassle free (no revision updates), handy, dandy collection of regional plates for the common aviatior.

Jepp does have dates printed on the plates... but they are not "expiration dates"... they are "valid from" dates.

There is no 56 day rule anywhere in the world of Jeppesen having to do with approach plates and Low/High Alt. Charts.

Bob
 
SmitteyB said:
So are NOS.

You're saying there are no dates on Jepps whatsoever?
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Again, read what Bob wrote. He seems to explain things better than I. But with that ATP guy, you shouldn't have been so quick on his case.

I admit, I should have been more specific. Dates on top are effective dates. If you don't receive a revision in the mail, those plates are still good. I'm not sure where you're getting this 56 day thing. No charts (NOS or Jepp) put two dates for effectivity. These aren't VFR charts.

Occasionally Jeppesen will send a list in the mail with what charts you should have and the correct dates for each chart (have gotten this only for paper enroute charts since we have EFBs).
 
stuckingfk said:
Again, read what Bob wrote. He seems to explain things better than I. But with that ATP guy, you shouldn't have been so quick on his case.

I admit, I should have been more specific. Dates on top are effective dates. If you don't receive a revision in the mail, those plates are still good. I'm not sure where you're getting this 56 day thing. No charts (NOS or Jepp) put two dates for effectivity. These aren't VFR charts.

Occasionally Jeppesen will send a list in the mail with what charts you should have and the correct dates for each chart (have gotten this only for paper enroute charts since we have EFBs).
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Okay- agreed. Good discussion though.
 
"727UPS, thanks for you opinion"

You're welcome...

"do you have anything other than second hand info?"

Yeah, reading the stuff I think is BS at the ATP website is pretty first hand. My knowledge of being a CFI since 1980 vs being a CFI for 90 days, and the difference in quality/competency between the two, is pretty first hand.

I'm the product of little FBO's. ATP wasn't even around when I started flying. So, it's not likely that I'll go back for first hand info, though a right seat ride in a slowtation with "real major airline pilots" might be something to put on my resume. I'll think about it.....

"I'm sure he'd be more than willing to explain to you what it is that he actually does during the checkrides"

If you're talking about TH in Riverside, he did my Capts line check, and yeah, we talked a lot about flight training today. In fact, I invited him to this site. I don't believe he took me up on it, however. Great guy, though, and word is he doesn't do many rides, anymore, because he's too tough.

"From the time I've been here the average pass rate for checkrides have been about 60%"

Wow...that's not too good. Why don't they put that on their website, since THAT'S some useful first hand information. Oh wait, why don't they just have a link to JC at their website so newbies coming to their site can learn more realistic stuff about the industry? Skymates does....
 
DE727UPS said:
Yeah, reading the stuff I think is BS at the ATP website is pretty first hand. My knowledge of being a CFI since 1980 vs being a CFI for 90 days, and the difference in quality/competency between the two, is pretty first hand.
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Just FYI, (I know you're extremely experienced and no disrespect intendend) the Private Pilot program is 60 days, and the ACPP is another 90. That's 4 months total. I've had my Private for 5 years now this July. So I think the ACPP is best suited for me.

---Ken
 
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