"Any Traffic, Please Advise" by an Airline

You could test this the next time you fly in to an uncontrolled field, as soon as you make your position report after you switch to CTAF, those in the pattern or a factor will make their radio calls again.
Then after those people make their calls, then ask if anybody is in the area.

Just a suggestion to test it out, from what I see day to day, "any traffic in the area" is worthless.
 
Oh man, this is giving me flashbacks of drinking at Riddle. By about 10pm there's always a group hotly debating "What controls (blank), pitch or power?" :)
 
Did my share of flying into and out of controlled airports during my instructing days and it is night and day different flying into an uncontrolled field in a jet at 200 knots than at 80 knots. Stuff starts happening fast and by the time ATC hands you off to CTAF and have a chance to make your position report you are ready to turn base and start descending for landing. I truly believe that Mode C should be required for ALL operations, If someone can afford a plane and all that goes with it then they should be able to get a transponder installed.

I usually start monitoring the CTAF freq on Comm 2 about 50 miles out when arriving at an uncontrolled field. But either way if I hear someone and am confused to what their intentions are or where they are I ask in simple english and the phraseology goes out the window. Going into State College PA we were handed over from ATC to the CTAF and when turning downwind to base a cessna reported a straight in final. I had been listening for the last 5 minutes and hadn't heard this guy. Needless to say I told him that we were turning base and he was kind enough to tell us he was 10 out and did a couple 360s till we landed.
 
PCL_128 said:
Thank you for reminding me why I hate general aviation so much. Bring on the prohibitive user fees to clean up the airspace!
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Where would we get new pilots from? All the flight schools out there would whither and die. Plus, a lot (a lot) of 135 jobs are GA jobs, we understand, and use the system as it was meant. Further, I and most of the pilots I fly with will go to great lengths to separate ourselves but we still have to see and avoid at the end of the day. If some jackass (and I do think disregarding an ATPA is a jackass thing) decides he's not going to self-announce, or has the wrong frequency in or is driving a vintage pa-11 and doesn't have electrics, then my job in uncontrolled airspace is to "see and avoid." That's why my eyes are outside.

PCL_128 said:
You're right, it's not. It's a very realistic scenario. The weekend warriors and fair weather flyers just don't get it.
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A lot of us do get it though. It doesn't matter as long as the airplanes stay separated, and nobody gets hit. If you have to use "non-standard" phraseology like "I'm over the river about 3 miles upstream from the rig, hey Steve is that you in the 180?" its better than Dave flying into you because he didn't know you were there and was busy with some other cockpit task.

PCL_128 said:
Sorry, but it's a widespread problem. Pilots that don't use radios, pilots that don't bother to turn on their transponders, pilots that don't use proper pattern entries, etc.... If I had my way, the government would require all airports that receive airline service to have operating control towers 24/7 with radar service, and all aircraft would be required to have and use a Mode C transponder.
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Not possible, I'd like radar to the ground, and 24/7 radar, but it will never happen. I use my mode c, and consider it a necessity for operations in the radar environment, but I don't really begrudge guys that don't have it. Its not required at all times yet.
 
SoCalAprch said:
Did my share of flying into and out of controlled airports during my instructing days and it is night and day different flying into an uncontrolled field in a jet at 200 knots than at 80 knots. Stuff starts happening fast and by the time ATC hands you off to CTAF and have a chance to make your position report you are ready to turn base and start descending for landing. I truly believe that Mode C should be required for ALL operations, If someone can afford a plane and all that goes with it then they should be able to get a transponder installed.

I usually start monitoring the CTAF freq on Comm 2 about 50 miles out when arriving at an uncontrolled field. But either way if I hear someone and am confused to what their intentions are or where they are I ask in simple english and the phraseology goes out the window. Going into State College PA we were handed over from ATC to the CTAF and when turning downwind to base a cessna reported a straight in final. I had been listening for the last 5 minutes and hadn't heard this guy. Needless to say I told him that we were turning base and he was kind enough to tell us he was 10 out and did a couple 360s till we landed.
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That'd be all well and dandy if every place was served by an airline, and every place had radar service. What's the point of having Mode C if you're going to spend all of your time under 1000' AGL and less than 80 kts, out of radar contact.
 
While I have absolutely no knowledge about flying anything other than a 172, I do not see anything wrong with what you said SoCalApproach. There is a big difference between making a blind blanket announcement that in all honesty could do more harm than good based on everyone trying to answer at the same time, and what you did in trying to get a specific position on a specific airplane, even if the phraseology wasn't correct. Everyone has had to do that at one time or another. That is why it annoys me when people make straight-ins (with the exception of being on an instrument approach). I had a similar situation in Port Clinton, OH, I had just just looked both ways (I was taking off on 27), and had looked at the final for runway 18. I was about to make my announcement for my departure (and scan final for 36, I couldn't see it from my hold-short position), when someone just said they were on final for a straight in on 36. I querried about their location, and they said they were 1 mile out. Obviously I just held my position (winds were about 270, so I don't know why they would want to use 36, but that's their decision). This was a time where asking another aircraft about position would be fruitful, because I had a specific aircraft I was refering to.
 
I have a question on this. Is it ALWAYS bad to state "traffic be advised"?

Scenerio that is making me ask question:

I have been in the airplane with my husband flying and I remember listening to see if there was any radio chatter (he asked for cabin silence from our girls long enough to listen for a minute to see if anyone was talking). He advise when moving to runup area and did the visual 360. While in run-up one airplane lands that hadn't advise of that intention at all, we had no clue he was even there. (I wish I could say that this specific time was the only time this had happened at this airport but it has happend other times to my husband and others we know that fly at this airport)

After completing run-up my husband stated, "number 2 traffic, cessna 4-6-echo entering runway 1-6 for immediate departure. Number 2 traffic be advised."

Although I had heard him state his intentions of taking off on runway 1-6 when he was going to the run-up area as well as do the visual 360 for any airplanes in the sky we didn't get anything with the first plane that landed and only got a response "Cessna 4-6-echo, traffic in pattern please hold" after stating our intentions to enter runway and take off. My husband did another 360 and sure nuff there was an airplane in pattern that hadn't been seen in the first 360. Not sure why it wasn't seen cause we both did a search. The only thing we could think was it was dusk and there is a mountain in the background for that runway pattern and it just got lost in the scenery. (Of course there is always the chance that it was human error on our side and thank goodness for radio to help with the unseen for us on that one!!)

Should the other pilots have advised they were in pattern or downwind when my husband state he was moving to the run-up area? Due to this experience, my husband has started to do 2 ground 360s. One when he first gets into the run-up area and one when he gets ready to enter the run-way. Figuring that if a plane is "lost in the shadows" it will have moved enough to see it on the second 360, cause we have learned that radio isn't all that reliable.

On both occassions, the pilots were not giving their location or saying they were downwind on approach...nothing is stated to give you notice that the airplane is anywher in approach or in pattern. Is it really wrong to state "traffic be advised" in that situation? If it is wrong, how should you state that? Just give your coordinates and hope that the other pilot does speak up once you state your intentions?
 
Personally, I think it is entirely too optomistic to fly into an uncontrolled field without asking if there is other traffic in the area. In fact, I'd call it downright complacent. The radio is a HUUUGE SA tool, and if you think your superior pilot skills or eyesight are going to be enough to protect you, you are wrong. Use all available tools!

So what if its not official terminology? We didn't get these jobs by proving our "thinking inside the box" mentalities. I'm not saying clog up the radios- listening comes first. But if you're using the radio as an aid to safety of flight, and anybody gives you crap about it, your boss should have your back 100% if he's worth a damn.
 
NewYorkophile said:
Personally, I think it is entirely too optomistic to fly into an uncontrolled field without asking if there is other traffic in the area. In fact, I'd call it downright complacent. The radio is a HUUUGE SA tool, and if you think your superior pilot skills or eyesight are going to be enough to protect you, you are wrong. Use all available tools!
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The problem is that using the "Any Traffic, Please Advise" mantra can cause more problems than it solves. The feds specifically advise against doing so, and they make that recommendation for well thought out reasons.

Good intentions alone don't make something right.
 
yes yes yes. "traffic please advise is worthless"! it is redundant & like saying your own inetentions twice! when you state your intentions it is already a que for any other traffic conflicts to speak up. to me this isnt just unprofessional but worse, its totally not needed, impracticle and ties up that frequency a few more seconds. unless needed all radio calls should be simple and abbreviated. "Taking the active runway". wrong, the only entity that declares a runway active is ATC, so ya dont say "active" ya say which rwy it is or others will not know what way youre going and will have to ask. "clear of the active". again wrong, say the rwy. & one of the worst of all, pilots giving reports while doing or practicing approaches that say what fix theyre at rather than a position intelligible to students, private pilots & non locals who dont have a clue where that fix is! they might as well not give a position at all!!!
Douglas said:
You could test this the next time you fly in to an uncontrolled field, as soon as you make your position report after you switch to CTAF, those in the pattern or a factor will make their radio calls again.
Then after those people make their calls, then ask if anybody is in the area.

Just a suggestion to test it out, from what I see day to day, "any traffic in the area" is worthless.
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riccochet said:
one of the worst of all, pilots giving reports while doing or practicing approaches that say what fix theyre at rather than a position intelligible to students, private pilots & non locals who dont have a clue where that fix is! they might as well not give a position at all!!!
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That's one of my favorites. "5 tango papa is HOKIE inbound on the VOR Alpha. Any traffic please advise." And it's severe clear.
 
teetee said:
I have a question on this. Is it ALWAYS bad to state "traffic be advised"?
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No ma'am, as far as see it. Speaking directly to an aircraft is a great way to making sure separation continues if it starts to get hairy or if the other pilots intentions are in question.

I am glad that he does look around so much before he enters the runway environment, I wish all people were like that. Also, the other pilot requesting him to hold because he was in the pattern was out of line. Your husband did a good job dealing with a guy that needs good BFR. Always use your eyes, there are still plenty of planes out here with out radios.
 
teetee said:
I have a question on this. Is it ALWAYS bad to state "traffic be advised"?

Scenerio that is making me ask question:

I have been in the airplane with my husband flying and I remember listening to see if there was any radio chatter (he asked for cabin silence from our girls long enough to listen for a minute to see if anyone was talking). He advise when moving to runup area and did the visual 360. While in run-up one airplane lands that hadn't advise of that intention at all, we had no clue he was even there. (I wish I could say that this specific time was the only time this had happened at this airport but it has happend other times to my husband and others we know that fly at this airport)
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The problem is that there is no guarantee that a pilot in the pattern would respond or even has the ability to respond. A pilot who is expecting it to make a difference is in danger of getting a false sense of security.

You said that your husband did the 360. Good. In addition, I'd expect that your husband checked for traffic on final before takeoff.

After completing run-up my husband stated, "number 2 traffic, cessna 4-6-echo entering runway 1-6 for immediate departure. Number 2 traffic be advised."

Although I had heard him state his intentions of taking off on runway 1-6 when he was going to the run-up area as well as do the visual 360 for any airplanes in the sky we didn't get anything with the first plane that landed and only got a response "Cessna 4-6-echo, traffic in pattern please hold" after stating our intentions to enter runway and take off.
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I don't understand. If he didn't see the second airplane, how did he know to advise "No. 2 traffic"?
Should the other pilots have advised they were in pattern or downwind when my husband state he was moving to the run-up area?
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The other pilots "should have" made their position regardless. But there's nothing special about responding in some way to your husband's call of going to the run-up area. Being in the run-up area doesn't represent a traffic conflict of any kind. If you've ever watched an inexperienced pilot do a run-up, you'd know that you can sometimes land 3 airplanes in the the time they take to complete it. If I were in the air, I wouldn't be concerned about someone in the run-up area until they began moving to the runway hold line.
Due to this experience, my husband has started to do 2 ground 360s. One when he first gets into the run-up area and one when he gets ready to enter the run-way. Figuring that if a plane is "lost in the shadows" it will have moved enough to see it on the second 360, cause we have learned that radio isn't all that reliable.
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An excellent lesson to learn.
Is it really wrong to state "traffic be advised" in that situation? If it is wrong, how should you state that? Just give your coordinates and hope that the other pilot does speak up once you state your intentions?
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The discussion so far centered on you asking other to advise you. But I really don't think adding "other traffic be advised" in words adds anything. My WAG is that pilot # 2 responded to your husband's report of moving to the runway than the words added to the end of it.

But, to the extent that your husband knew of the existence of the other airplane and conversed with it, I don't see anything wrong whatsoever.
 
I think the feds would get the person who failed to respond to a "ATPA" request if something happened, not the person who made the request.
 
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