Ameriflight

Cal Goat said:
Agreed, but most do not go to a major. I had a 4 year AMFer riding in the jumpseat of my regional airliner the other day because they had recently been hired by us. Even with thousands of hours of TPIC time, they ended up coming to a regional. QOL considerations seem to be getting a lot of folks from the great 135 cargo airline to move over to the regionals. I get emails from my former AMF coworkers asking about coming over to my new airline all the time.

Yeah, attitude, mindset, making the best of it... all noble things. But we don't do this for charity. Something has to give over there if they want to retain quality pilots. Or maybe they don't really care about retention? And if that's the case, why should pilots go there at all?

I think the answer moving forward is "To get my 1500 hours so that I can go to a regional." Maybe I'll proved wrong.

And I should clarify, because I think I might talk too much crap about AMF in here, that my experience there made me sad for the state of an airline that I thought was a righteous place to go and fly. I saw a company culture that didn't really encourage loyalty. I saw a company that was the biggest and most recognizable name in the industry not doing much growth and actually shrinking in my region. I left there with a profound sense of relief of having escaped a bad situation.

It's a shame, and I really hope they can shift the company culture, starting with encouraging pilot loyalty and continuing by growing and improving the brand. Because right now, it seems like they're just content with being good enough.

Sorry, that went way longer than I had planned.
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Even at only one year in the chieftain and the rest of the their four years in a turbine will not yield an amf'er with enough competitive turbine time with guys who have been captains at the regional for 8+ years. I've been at AMF "quite some time" and only barely eclipsing 5 grand with about 3600 of it being turbine PIC. So basically with the amount of time I have, I'm finally becoming competitive. Most of my friends who started at the regionalism at the same time I started at amf haven't even upgraded to captain yet.
 
KLB said:
Even at only one year in the chieftain and the rest of the their four years in a turbine will not yield an amf'er with enough competitive turbine time with guys who have been captains at the regional for 8+ years. I've been at AMF "quite some time" and only barely eclipsing 5 grand with about 3600 of it being turbine PIC. So basically with the amount of time I have, I'm finally becoming competitive. Most of my friends who started at the regionalism at the same time I started at amf haven't even upgraded to captain yet.
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I hear what you're saying here, but then my focus has to move to pay/benefits and QOL. There are several regionals that don't totally shaft their pilots and over an equal amount of time, you'd be making more money at a regional, your family would have flight benefits, and your schedule could potentially be more flexible/better.

I'd even add the concept of variety to this because at any given base at AMF you're only flying to a handful of the same airports. RJ flying with some of the bigger regionals can take you coast to coast. Maybe that doesn't mean much to some guys, but I was going insane flying to the same 10 airports M-F.

And thinking of even more general QOL comparisons from my AMF days:
My airplane has decent climate control... and my current employer puts us in pretty decent hotels for our layovers... and I fly with new and [usually] cool people all the time. From my personal experience, those were things that did not happen at AMF.
 
Seems to me your mindset determines a great deal of your QOL. Or rather, your perception of it. There is a legitimate argument to be made either way, so it's on the individual to choose how they perceive their time at AMF.

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KLB said:
Even at only one year in the chieftain and the rest of the their four years in a turbine will not yield an amf'er with enough competitive turbine time with guys who have been captains at the regional for 8+ years. I've been at AMF "quite some time" and only barely eclipsing 5 grand with about 3600 of it being turbine PIC. So basically with the amount of time I have, I'm finally becoming competitive. Most of my friends who started at the regionalism at the same time I started at amf haven't even upgraded to captain yet.
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Those competitive hours needed could be Kool Aid. The majors are hiring, and people are getting hired. Last UAL pilot I talked to said they weren't filling classes because of a shortage of recall acceptance and were hiring off the street. I haven't heard about any turbine freight guys getting hired. The reality is, competitive hours is just the beginning. EMS, corporate, 91 jet jobs and regionals are all very achievable from AMF and the similar. The general idea from friends is that the 121 world wants those who are already in the 121 world, or are at least getting jet time in a multi crew environment. If the flood gates open they will take everyone qualified, but for now and the foreseeable future, there is an endless supply of 121 jet drivers out there that all have several thousand jet hours. Most of the job postings that I have seem now don't specify turbine PIC time, but rather just turbine. So those wanting to go to the majors, which is every 121 regional FO and CA might have the advantage regardless. At least they do for now.
 
Inverted said:
Those competitive hours needed could be Kool Aid. The majors are hiring, and people are getting hired. Last UAL pilot I talked to said they weren't filling classes because of a shortage of recall acceptance and were hiring off the street. I haven't heard about any turbine freight guys getting hired. The reality is, competitive hours is just the beginning. EMS, corporate, 91 jet jobs and regionals are all very achievable from AMF and the similar. The general idea from friends is that the 121 world wants those who are already in the 121 world, or are at least getting jet time in a multi crew environment. If the flood gates open they will take everyone qualified, but for now and the foreseeable future, there is an endless supply of 121 jet drivers out there that all have several thousand jet hours. Most of the job postings that I have seem now don't specify turbine PIC time, but rather just turbine. So those wanting to go to the majors, which is every 121 regional FO and CA might have the advantage regardless. At least they do for now.
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Its too early to tell who the majors will hire. Of all the qualified pilots we have here on JC, I only know of a handful recently hired into the majors. The most recent AMFer hired into a major was around 07/08. That's not including the jET Blue and Allegient guys hired in the last couple of years.
 
Cal Goat said:
I hear what you're saying here, but then my focus has to move to pay/benefits and QOL. There are several regionals that don't totally shaft their pilots and over an equal amount of time, you'd be making more money at a regional, your family would have flight benefits, and your schedule could potentially be more flexible/better.

I'd even add the concept of variety to this because at any given base at AMF you're only flying to a handful of the same airports. RJ flying with some of the bigger regionals can take you coast to coast. Maybe that doesn't mean much to some guys, but I was going insane flying to the same 10 airports M-F.

And thinking of even more general QOL comparisons from my AMF days:
My airplane has decent climate control... and my current employer puts us in pretty decent hotels for our layovers... and I fly with new and [usually] cool people all the time. From my personal experience, those were things that did not happen at AMF.
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I'll give you a few of those points. AMF QOL varies greatly from base to base. Those BFI pilots leave at a much slower rate than HWD for instance.
 
Inverted said:
I haven't heard about any turbine freight guys getting hired.
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Probably because they can still suck up check airmen and people with previous Boeing/airbus time.

Think about it. AMF has a high attrition. There are maybe 50 people on the seniority list at the most that are anywhere near competitive numbers for a major. That isn't a large sample size of pilots to choose from. Especially since street hiring has been so limited.

If you want to talk about bad QOL then go for it. I had the worst QOL in the company for a good 8 months.
 
If AMF (or any freight feeder for that matter) was such a feeder for the majors historically, wouldn't there be less attrition?
 
Well being that the majors haven't been hiring consistently for the last ten years it's hard to say. Not too long ago people have left AMF and gotten on with Alaska and United though. Southwest has also hired quite a few pilots from AMF. I've met a handful while jumpseating. As I've mentioned before, I can see why some people leave. It actually isn't all that bad of an idea to get 1000TPIC and move on to the regionals.

I'm all about not selling myself and my experience short. I've flown 4 different airplanes and three different turboprops while here. I have flown to 4 different countries and on all different coast surrounding the US. I've flown out of all the bases with the exception of SLC. Desert valley, high desert, low desert, thunderstorm, thundersnow. I've flown into every state with the exception of Montana, Maine, and Alaska (just missed getting an Alaska trip out of BFI).

A buddy of mine was hired at United after flying with PSA as an FO. No turbine PIC time and mostly only east coast flying. How did he get hired? He networked his rear end off. Thats what will get you to the next level. Making the right people like you enough to hire you.

With that being said, I'm not necessarily waiting on the majors to look at me and hire me. I have no idea what my next move will be. I'll know it when I see it I guess.
 
Maurus said:
You really underestimate what bad QOL can do to people.

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Dude I spent all of my time at the worst base AMF has lol. I don't regret my time at AMF one bit, enjoyed the flying I did and I am thankful for the experience. But if people are getting hired into the majors from the regionals as FOs, the QOL at regionals are substantially better, the second year pay at regionals are much better than 3-4 year pay at AMF, and there is no direct advantage to go to AMF with regards to being hired at the majors. Where are the advantages if going to a major is your only career track?
 
Inverted said:
Dude I spent all of my time at the worst base AMF has
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Actually, OAK wasn't the worst base. I don't think you flew out of any of the other bases for more than training reasons.

DFW, OMA, and CVG are way way worse than OAK ever was for me.

Pay, QOL, ect are good reasons not go to AMF for an extended period of time, but there is no proof that says a major can not be attained in a reasonable amount of time. As KLB said, the last decade is a terrible indicator as not many people have been hired at all.

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I guess the thing I don't understand about AMF at this point is why they're content to have such a high turnover. I assume it has to do with profit margins and what they're able to realistically pay pilots. That makes the whole situation challenging I think. Like, "I guess I'll go stick it out at AMF for a few years."

My current airline, a regional, has a significant number of pilots who plan on retiring here. First year pay aside, when you work for a company that people are happy to live out their entire careers at, it makes an amazing difference in the QOL and the attitudes of the people you work with.

Again, it just all goes back to my disappointment and frustration with the type of company that AMF could be.
 
Maurus said:
Actually, OAK wasn't the worst base. I don't think you flew out of any of the other bases for more than training reasons.

DFW, OMA, and CVG are way way worse than OAK ever was for me.

Pay, QOL, ect are good reasons not go to AMF for an extended period of time, but there is no proof that says a major can not be attained in a reasonable amount of time. As KLB said, the last decade is a terrible indicator as not many people have been hired at all.

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What DFW, OMA and CVG all have in common, they are all turbine bases, are not bleeding runs by the month, and have base managers who care a little bit more, than not at all. You've got me there though, I was not based out of anywhere else except OAK.

I will agree that there is no prove a major cannot be attained from AMF, but there has been no proof in almost a decade, that the freight world is feeding guys into mainline 121 operators. I think once you are on the line at Express that you will hear a lot of things that are contrary to what you were told, or heard at AMF. AMF pilots go into some great careers once they move on, but you can't tell me that the mainline operators wont favor 10 years of prior 121 service over 10 years in a Metro. One of my good friends who works for UAL, was hired back in the day after he applied to a newspaper want ad. At the time he was flying a turbo commander part 91. Those days are over, and are never coming back. Aircraft have changed, therefore the requirements have changed.
 
Inverted said:
What DFW, OMA and CVG all have in common, they are all turbine bases, are not bleeding runs by the month, and have base managers who care a little bit more, than not at all. You've got me there though, I was not based out of anywhere else except OAK.
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Yeah CVG lost a huge run along with majorly shrinking some others, DFW lost all their bros and such. Trust me it is not pretty. OMA just sucks for its own reasons. ACPs that don't care happen to fill a couple slots in there as well. (not DFW) UPS jacks with DFW a bit much.

Inverted said:
but there has been no proof in almost a decade, that the freight world is feeding guys into mainline 121 operators.
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And the last decade has been the worst in the history of the major airlines other than a select few. There is no logical reasoning for saying there is a small chance of going from AMF to a major because of the last decade. It is the worst example in airline history. This is the entire point.
 
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