Ameriflight

spbrian said:
Agree to disagree, experience changes views and after having gone through the training and also given the training my views have grown and changed.
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I respect your experience and opinion. But I would only suggest that airlines flying larger and more complex aircraft with many more lives hinging on the training and actions of the crew are using AQ/CQ programs which are focused mainly on line oriented flying and scenarios. Somebody, somewhere figured out a while back that maybe it wasn't the best strategy to have experienced pilots going into recurrent or transition training fearing for their jobs.

Let me just add that as a pilot with 2 type ratings and and ATP that I got prior to the types, the ATP ride isn't anything really significant. I don't doubt that the Metro is a challenging airplane to fly and that the single pilot (although that phrase raises many disturbing questions about the Korean FO program) operations require heightened awareness and skill, but I still question the failure rate in AMF training. I swear they have a pink slip quota because the way they operate that training program seems like it's wasting money and perfectly good talent. Trust me, I saw some real gems slip through the cracks.

Airline training has evolved, but AMF doesn't really seem to have changed much since the days of The Bob.
 
Cal Goat said:
I respect your experience and opinion. But I would only suggest that airlines flying larger and more complex aircraft with many more lives hinging on the training and actions of the crew are using AQ/CQ programs which are focused mainly on line oriented flying and scenarios. Somebody, somewhere figured out a while back that maybe it wasn't the best strategy to have experienced pilots going into recurrent or transition training fearing for their jobs.

Let me just add that as a pilot with 2 type ratings and and ATP that I got prior to the types, the ATP ride isn't anything really significant. I don't doubt that the Metro is a challenging airplane to fly and that the single pilot (although that phrase raises many disturbing questions about the Korean FO program) operations require heightened awareness and skill, but I still question the failure rate in AMF training. I swear they have a pink slip quota because the way they operate that training program seems like it's wasting money and perfectly good talent. Trust me, I saw some real gems slip through the cracks.

Airline training has evolved, but AMF doesn't really seem to have changed much since the days of The Bob.
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AMF doesn't have an AQ/CP program, and while it would be an amazing addition if it was to happen it probably will not. Until then the training and checkride will be what it is, nothing was hidden from individuals about what they were getting into when they stepped foot into SA227 class.

When I was looking at the stats, the failures weren't just something about "not flying a good checkride." They came from the applicant circling at the straight in minimums instead of the circling, descending below a step-down altitude due to chart interpretation or letting ATC put the applicant into a situation that they were unwilling to ask for delay vectors to go through the required steps to be stable and then shooting or landing the aircraft prior to completing checklists.

Odds are that you will not bust the SA227 check from a "metro-ism" or that it's that much faster or that much harder to fly than previous airplanes, but that it's the combination of it being just fast enough, just busier enough to cause the applicant to get out of rhythm and then make a mistake on items that you would never make a mistake on, AKA wrong minimums, step down, etc....
 
spbrian said:
AMF doesn't have an AQ/CP program, and while it would be an amazing addition if it was to happen it probably will not. Until then the training and checkride will be what it is, nothing was hidden from individuals about what they were getting into when they stepped foot into SA227 class.

When I was looking at the stats, the failures weren't just something about "not flying a good checkride." They came from the applicant circling at the straight in minimums instead of the circling, descending below a step-down altitude due to chart interpretation or letting ATC put the applicant into a situation that they were unwilling to ask for delay vectors to go through the required steps to be stable and then shooting or landing the aircraft prior to completing checklists.

Odds are that you will not bust the SA227 check from a "metro-ism" or that it's that much faster or that much harder to fly than previous airplanes, but that it's the combination of it being just fast enough, just busier enough to cause the applicant to get out of rhythm and then make a mistake on items that you would never make a mistake on, AKA wrong minimums, step down, etc....
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Isn't making simple mistakes like stepdowns and circling minimums the very definition of "not flying a good checkride"? I think it's reasonable to assume that the pilots stepping up to the Metro at AMF are more than adequate IFR pilots. We know they've been flying instruments operationally 5 days a week for a year or more.

Besides, passing the AMF Metro ride is no guarantee that the pilot won't make a gear up landing at some point. But I'm sure the pilot that did that could fly a perfect partial panel, single engine, circling approach with just an ADF and a clock.

I know I must sound like a bitter AMF hater, but I'm really not. As I've said before, I'm just disappointed by my experience there. One of the most recognized 135 freight companies with nationwide and international ops; and yet there was no apparent interest in growing and evolving. It's like the company peaked sometime in the 1980s, and everyone was just satisfied with that achievement.
 
Cal Goat said:
Isn't making simple mistakes like stepdowns and circling minimums the very definition of "not flying a good checkride"? I think it's reasonable to assume that the pilots stepping up to the Metro at AMF are more than adequate IFR pilots. We know they've been flying instruments operationally 5 days a week for a year or more.
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A year or more? Maybe in yesteryear, but not in today's world. Seems like its getting common to be in the 1900/227 within 6 months these days. 121 ain't the only place hurting for pilots.
 
Of the guys in my training class at Ameriflight that are still in flying all but 2 are flying 767s. Myself (corporate) and another member on here i believe went to the mormon airforce.
 
mikecweb said:
Of the guys in my training class at Ameriflight that are still in flying all but 2 are flying 767s. Myself (corporate) and another member on here i believe went to the mormon airforce.
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Even the one who went to be a mechanic for a while?
 
Cal Goat said:
Isn't making simple mistakes like stepdowns and circling minimums the very definition of "not flying a good checkride"? I think it's reasonable to assume that the pilots stepping up to the Metro at AMF are more than adequate IFR pilots. We know they've been flying instruments operationally 5 days a week for a year or more.

Besides, passing the AMF Metro ride is no guarantee that the pilot won't make a gear up landing at some point. But I'm sure the pilot that did that could fly a perfect partial panel, single engine, circling approach with just an ADF and a clock.

I know I must sound like a bitter AMF hater, but I'm really not. As I've said before, I'm just disappointed by my experience there. One of the most recognized 135 freight companies with nationwide and international ops; and yet there was no apparent interest in growing and evolving. It's like the company peaked sometime in the 1980s, and everyone was just satisfied with that achievement.
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TBH you never went beyond the PA-31 and haven't experienced the other programs. The SA-227 program was actually the best one at AMF that I had been through. All the people that failed in my class admitted that they failed because of some stupid IFR error.

I almost failed my check ride twice. Both would have been viable failures had I actually not caught and fixed my problem. The checkride was more than fair. Considering that Brian here did my checkride I believe his analysis is correct.

You are absolutely right in how management works with failures and such. BUR flight training and checkrides were directly connected to that terrible management mentality. The training programs not done at BUR typically don't have the same mentality that you had experienced. The EMB-120 and SA-227 programs are a completely different experience.
 
Maurus said:
TBH you never went beyond the PA-31 and haven't experienced the other programs. The SA-227 program was actually the best one at AMF that I had been through. All the people that failed in my class admitted that they failed because of some stupid IFR error.

I almost failed my check ride twice. Both would have been viable failures had I actually not caught and fixed my problem. The checkride was more than fair. Considering that Brian here did my checkride I believe his analysis is correct.

You are absolutely right in how management works with failures and such. BUR flight training and checkrides were directly connected to that terrible management mentality. The training programs not done at BUR typically don't have the same mentality that you had experienced. The EMB-120 and SA-227 programs are a completely different experience.
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But where does this zero tolerance BS come from when it comes to the SA227 checkride, or any other type ride for that matter? Nowhere else do you get a pink slip for a single mess up.

The thing I remember most about when somebody failed a check ride, no matter how long they had been with the company, they were instantly chastised, labeled a dirtbag, and forgotten like yesterdays news. AMF reminded me of a Hollywood portrayal of how the mob is. You become an employee, you are then "one" of the family. You sneeze wrong, or do any kind if minor slip up, everyone makes fun of you, talks smack behind your back, and BUR tries to ruin your career over it. Most times with no second chance, I don't get that till this day, and I will never understand that.
 
Inverted said:
But where does this zero tolerance BS come from when it comes to the SA227 checkride, or any other type ride for that matter? Nowhere else do you get a pink slip for a single mess up.

The thing I remember most about when somebody failed a check ride, no matter how long they had been with the company, they were instantly chastised, labeled a dirtbag, and forgotten like yesterdays news. AMF reminded me of a Hollywood portrayal of how the mob is. You become an employee, you are then "one" of the family. You sneeze wrong, or do any kind if minor slip up, everyone makes fun of you, talks smack behind your back, and BUR tries to ruin your career over it. Most times with no second chance, I don't get that till this day, and I will never understand that.
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The zero tolerance for types and ATP comes from the PTS. They can only be circumvented by approved training programs. How management works is just stupid but it's hopefully being improved
 
I know that is how the ATP is, but FSI and CAE were both very clear when I did my types that if you add an ATP to it, nothing can be repeated. I am not aware of this for a type rating.
 
Inverted said:
I know that is how the ATP is, but FSI and CAE were both very clear when I did my types that if you add an ATP to it, nothing can be repeated. I am not aware of this for a type rating.
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It is also that way for a type rating. Just did one at fsi and I'm already an atp. They made sure I knew.
 
Cal Goat said:
Isn't making simple mistakes like stepdowns and circling minimums the very definition of "not flying a good checkride"? I think it's reasonable to assume that the pilots stepping up to the Metro at AMF are more than adequate IFR pilots. We know they've been flying instruments operationally 5 days a week for a year or more.

Besides, passing the AMF Metro ride is no guarantee that the pilot won't make a gear up landing at some point. But I'm sure the pilot that did that could fly a perfect partial panel, single engine, circling approach with just an ADF and a clock.
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No, busting a step down or choosing the wrong minimum is not the definition of a good checkride. Examiners only get a "snapshot" of that individual pilot in a period of a few hours to make a determination of adequate training. A pilot may only get hurried and miss-interpret a chart once, but if it happens on a checkride the examiner does not know that it has only happened that one time and we cannot assume that just because an individual has been flying instruments 5 days a week that this miss-interpretation is not something leading to a bigger issue.

Maurus said:
TBH you never went beyond the PA-31 and haven't experienced the other programs. The SA-227 program was actually the best one at AMF that I had been through. All the people that failed in my class admitted that they failed because of some stupid IFR error.

I almost failed my check ride twice. Both would have been viable failures had I actually not caught and fixed my problem. The checkride was more than fair. Considering that Brian here did my checkride I believe his analysis is correct.

You are absolutely right in how management works with failures and such. BUR flight training and checkrides were directly connected to that terrible management mentality. The training programs not done at BUR typically don't have the same mentality that you had experienced. The EMB-120 and SA-227 programs are a completely different experience.
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Thank you.

Inverted said:
But where does this zero tolerance BS come from when it comes to the SA227 checkride, or any other type ride for that matter? Nowhere else do you get a pink slip for a single mess up.

The thing I remember most about when somebody failed a check ride, no matter how long they had been with the company, they were instantly chastised, labeled a dirtbag, and forgotten like yesterdays news. AMF reminded me of a Hollywood portrayal of how the mob is. You become an employee, you are then "one" of the family. You sneeze wrong, or do any kind if minor slip up, everyone makes fun of you, talks smack behind your back, and BUR tries to ruin your career over it. Most times with no second chance, I don't get that till this day, and I will never understand that.
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Inverted said:
I know that is how the ATP is, but FSI and CAE were both very clear when I did my types that if you add an ATP to it, nothing can be repeated. I am not aware of this for a type rating.
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On the cover of the ATP-PTS, FAA document FAA-S-8081-5F reads:

"Airline Transport Pilot and Aircraft Type Rating Practical Test Standards for Airplane."

The forward:

"The Airline Transport Pilot and Aircraft Type Rating—Airplane Practical Test Standards (PTS) book has been published by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to establish the standards for airline transport pilot and aircraft type rating practical tests for airplanes. FAA inspectors, designated pilot examiners, and check airmen (referred to as examiners throughout the remaining practical test standard) must conduct practical tests in compliance with these standards. Flight instructors and applicants should find these standards helpful in practical test preparation."
 
OK I stand corrected, I was told something different. It is a totally different topic, but we can talk about the differences in zero tolerance PTS standards, and being paying customers at FSI or CAE, and how that changes the dynamic a little bit. ;)
 
Inverted said:
OK I stand corrected, I was told something different. It is a totally different topic, but we can talk about the differences in zero tolerance PTS standards, and being paying customers at FSI or CAE, and how that changes the dynamic a little bit. ;)
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I may need a frosty beverage first. :bang:
 
mikecweb said:
United, Omni, ANA

Not sure who that is. In my class?
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Four of you came together. You, one furloughed evergreen, one furloughed continental, and one who had been just about everywhere and flown everything.

The last guy. Remember the MDT incident?
 
KLB said:
Four of you came together. You, one furloughed evergreen, one furloughed continental, and one who had been just about everywhere and flown everything.

The last guy. Remember the MDT incident?
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ahhhh yea now I remember. I was including my ground school at BUR.
 
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