Ameriflight PA-31 Accident - Arizona

I don't think people realize that when most of the accident that occurred with AMF the G430s didn't exist or didn't have terrain capabilities.

AMF can only do so much to protect the crew. What the PIC decides to do or not do can not be controlled. I'm willing to bet that cape air would have tons of more accidents if they operated in mountainous terrain.

Ice in mountains is a completely different ballgame. You get iced up and you can't even descend as an option. Night in the mountains is again, different ballgame.

jrh get some cargo experience out west and come back to me.
 
I believe this is a false dichotomy. There's nothing that says that night cargo has to be riskier, we just all assume it must be riskier because of the environment and the costs. Do you think Cape Air stays on the ground when the weather is bad? No, I've seen those airplanes out plodding around in all sorts of crummy weather, especially in North East icing. Amflight and Cape Air probably even have most of the same OpSpecs, and are governed by mostly the same rules - so why does one company put one every couple years and why doesn't the other? And, this isn't my Amflight bashing, Amflight is what it is, but they face the realities of UPS more than they face the realities of their own business model. It's my opinion that on time performance pressure to fly in less than acceptable conditions is a result of the UPS system in freight most of the time, rather than what the company wants. That said, the reality of the job is that Amflight puts airplanes into the ground at a higher rate than CapeAir. Why is flying at Ameriflight "less safe" than flying at Cape Air? Let's use the PAVE model, and do some thinking about risk.

Pilots: Ameriflight can hire pilots as low as 1200hrs, Cape Air needs 1500hrs and an ATP to hire pilots. I doubt this is a contributing difference, but it could be (seems unlikely to me). Pilots for Ameriflight often fly weirdly disjointed schedules (created to please UPS) this is almost certainly a cause of fatigue. Regardless, both places higher younger, less experienced pilots. The only difference is that I'd bet more Amflight guys fly fatigued than Cape Air guys because of the type of flying. I'd also posit that everything I've heard about Cape Air leads me to believe that the training there is a little bit more rigorous than Amflight - again, not a bash, just a reality from my experience.

Aircraft: This is what we've been discussing. TAWS, or GPS equipment, or better equipment in some way shape or form - obviously, Cape Air has the jump on Amflight.

enVironment: The terrain Ameriflight commonly operates in is obviously more difficult than Cape Air's. Exposure to bad weather is probably about the same.

External Pressures: UPS creates a stupid amount of pressure. More than it should. Also, I'd suspect that just generally freight companies tend to push their pilots more than people-flying, but that's anecdotal on my part. Regardless, I bet that flying at both places has it's external pressures and headaches - realistically, Amflight may have more due to UPS, but I can't prove it.

Well, we're not going to change the external pressures (as late freight is unacceptable!), and we can't change the environment we operate in (1800RVR and VV001! Freight's gotta move, go give it a shot!) so what are things we can EASILY change to reduce risk? I posit that you can reduce risk quite easily at Amflight by adding more equipment, and training the pilots better. Equipment like GPS and TAWS are probably the most reliable way to make things safer, with revisions to training coming next. Either way, the flying is more challenging than Cape Air in terms of terrain, and the external pressures are probably greater at Amflight, but there are ways to help mitigate other risks in the job. You don't have to have everything stacked against you all the time! No, you don't need moving map GPS and TAWS to fly around in the mountains, and yes these don't do any good if pilots ignore them - but saying "F-it, this job is dangerous," misses the point. How do we fix the problem that guys keep hitting mountains in the middle of the night? How do we stop guys from making the same mistakes that countless pilots have made over the years.? How do we mitigate the risk in a way that keeps the airplanes moving just as much? The answer: better equipment and training will help, those are the only two things we can easily change, so why the hell hasn't Amflight changed them? Is it money? UPS is stingy, so any company that flies for them generally has to be stingy too, sure, but I don't think that's it. Is it the culture? Probably, every Amflight guy I know talked about how cool it was that this was the "most challenging flying they'll ever do." That doesn't help that the pilots create their own pressure to fly minimalist in the worst weather they can, that probably rubs off on management and the training department. Regardless, equipment which could make that kind of flying safer is available, reasonably priced, and easy to use. Why isn't it installed? We're not talking about a Mom & Pop 135, we're talking about the largest 135 operator in the country, with airframes and operations in almost every state, Canada, and Mexico. It's not like the money isn't there - rather the will isn't.

You aren't far off the mark on a lot of your comments in theory. But I feel you are way off the mark by saying the training is better at Cape Air. How could you possibly know that? Flying a 402 is much different than say a SA227, EMB120 etc. How could the training to fly a 402 be more rigorous than flying much larger, faster and complex aircraft? Requiring 300 more hours and an ATP is laughable. That is a drop in the bucket. if somebody has their ATP because they flew a seminole, and they have 300 more hours of 172 time as a CFI how does that equate to more experience to do the job? I don't feel like you are AMF bashing but your feelings reflect what you have heard.

I don't know how else to explain it, some people get it some dont. Flying freight is more demanding because that is the nature of the job. We could make the same arguments to other hazardous flying duty. Are we to tell CalFire to stop fighting fires because it is dangerous? Flying freight is inherently dangerous by nature and the reasons for such have been pounded into the ground already. We seem to forget that in the end, the PIC in the cockpit makes the final decision. I have never seen a pilot fired at AMF for refusing to break a rule, or shoot an approach below mins. Too many times it was the pilot putting himself/herself in a situation that the company had little to know knowledge of.

Yes the schedules suck, yes they fly tired. Who is to say UPS pilots don't fly tired, or regional pilots don't fly tired? There are a lot of contributing factors besides the schedule that can make a pilot fly tired and fatigued. I think it needs to be reminded that people come to AMF knowing whats going on. They know the equipment sucks, they know its going to be great experience. I agree 100% with you that the money is there, and they need to spend some money upgrading the fleet which they are doing. Every 99 is being outfitted with a GNS 750s so there are upgrades being made. The problem is parts of management, are stuck in a time about a half century ago. Once the mentality of management changes, things will get a lot better there. Comparing Cape Air accidents to AMF is apples to oranges. Compare AMF accidents to Neptune Aviation. You want to see staggering fatal accident history, do some reading on them.
 
Just went over that accident during SSDD. Really unfortunate.

Yes. Steve Tulley. Also killed were RN Laura Prada and Respiratory Tech Karen Peebles.

Guardian Medical, then part of Flagstaff Medical Center, lost it's operating certificate. The FAA revoked it by emergency order on 8 counts, chief of which One of the biggest problems going on at Guardian was the program director of flight operations was an RN, not a pilot. Not even remotely qualified to be holding that position. Other alleged violationsranged from lack of training; pilot duty log violations/falsifications; an employee working during a required rest period; employees being required to do duties not necessary during aircraft operations; and not having timely procedures to notify the FAA or SAR if a company plane was down or missing..
 
Jrh while I don't disagree with you, but you can argue those points with every single accident to have ever happened. At some point there was an oversight, or bad decision by somebody along the way.

It's no secret how AMF operates, and every current and ex employee has several things running through his head after an accident like this, one of which is, "it was only a matter of time."

Cal Goat is right on. I bought into the cowboy mentality for a bit, then something clicked and I completely changed the way I operated. No canceled check or Amazon Kindle is worth it...I also unfortunately have to agree with his assessment of the training department. Lets just say its a lot easier to armchair quarterback from the right seat thing is to fly the left seat when it comes to training.

What I will say though, is there was never a captain there I didn't feel really comfortable flying with. They pump out good pilots. With that said, there is still a constant trade between luck and skill. For a lot of those guys it's the first time flying in any kind of real weather.

I agree with this entire statement.

I agree with this statement also. Monday quarterbacking was very bad. Even if you made a good, smart decision based on safety but put the company in a bad spot, you would get a call. Damn if you do damn if you don't.
 
Yes. Steve Tulley. Also killed were RN Laura Prada and Respiratory Tech Karen Peebles.

Guardian Medical, then part of Flagstaff Medical Center, lost it's operating certificate. The FAA revoked it by emergency order on 8 counts, chief of which One of the biggest problems going on at Guardian was the program director of flight operations was an RN, not a pilot. Not even remotely qualified to be holding that position. Other alleged violationsranged from lack of training; pilot duty log violations/falsifications; an employee working during a required rest period; employees being required to do duties not necessary during aircraft operations; and not having timely procedures to notify the FAA or SAR if a company plane was down or missing..
How does this slip through the grasp of the FAA? When I was flying air ambulance, I saw our POI at least twice a month. When these violations are "discovered" (usually folloing an incident/accident), are the POIs held responsible for failures of oversight? To what standards are the inspectors held? Seems to me the fix goes well beyond the certificate holder's office.
P.S. The Director of Operations isn't required to be a pilot......
 
How does this slip through the grasp of the FAA? When I was flying air ambulance, I saw our POI at least twice a month. When these violations are "discovered" (usually folloing an incident/accident), are the POIs held responsible for failures of oversight? To what standards are the inspectors held? Seems to me the fix goes well beyond the certificate holder's office.
P.S. The Director of Operations isn't required to be a pilot......

Back then, the FAA had a problem with Guardian's DO not being a pilot, along with the other items. As far as what their POI was doing, I still wonder.
 
Yes. Steve Tulley. Also killed were RN Laura Prada and Respiratory Tech Karen Peebles.

Guardian Medical, then part of Flagstaff Medical Center, lost it's operating certificate. The FAA revoked it by emergency order on 8 counts, chief of which One of the biggest problems going on at Guardian was the program director of flight operations was an RN, not a pilot. Not even remotely qualified to be holding that position. Other alleged violationsranged from lack of training; pilot duty log violations/falsifications; an employee working during a required rest period; employees being required to do duties not necessary during aircraft operations; and not having timely procedures to notify the FAA or SAR if a company plane was down or missing..
In a general sense, I don't get why companies try to save a couple of bucks skimping on regulations or pushing the limits when eventually it will come and bite them in the ass and they will loose at least what they tried to save, if not more...
 
AMF can only do so much to protect the crew. What the PIC decides to do or not do can not be controlled. I'm willing to bet that cape air would have tons of more accidents if they operated in mountainous terrain.

Maybe they would. And how long do you think their operation would last if that were to happen?

Maybe IFR at night in the mountains isn't the smartest place for a single pilot operation? At some point, a person has to say, "We're trying to cram a square peg in a round hole." The plane, pilot, and environment are not compatible with each other.

Empire Airlines has figured out a way to operate in the mountain west safely. Skywest has figured out how to do it. Why can't the smaller companies?

jrh get some cargo experience out west and come back to me.

Ok. :rolleyes:

I've never flown cargo out west, but I've spent significant amounts of time all over the western US as a flight instructor, ferry pilot, and in my personal flying. I also have multiple personal friends who have flown for AMF or similar companies. You might disagree with me, but don't assume I'm completely ignorant of the risks involved just because I haven't worked where you work.
 
Maybe they would. And how long do you think their operation would last if that were to happen?

Maybe IFR at night in the mountains isn't the smartest place for a single pilot operation? At some point, a person has to say, "We're trying to cram a square peg in a round hole." The plane, pilot, and environment are not compatible with each other.

Empire Airlines has figured out a way to operate in the mountain west safely. Skywest has figured out how to do it. Why can't the smaller companies?



Ok. :rolleyes:

I've never flown cargo out west, but I've spent significant amounts of time all over the western US as a flight instructor, ferry pilot, and in my personal flying. I also have multiple personal friends who have flown for AMF or similar companies. You might disagree with me, but don't assume I'm completely ignorant of the risks involved just because I haven't worked where you work.

Skywest and Empire operate small twins?
 
Maybe they would. And how long do you think their operation would last if that were to happen?

Maybe IFR at night in the mountains isn't the smartest place for a single pilot operation? At some point, a person has to say, "We're trying to cram a square peg in a round hole." The plane, pilot, and environment are not compatible with each other.

Empire Airlines has figured out a way to operate in the mountain west safely. Skywest has figured out how to do it. Why can't the smaller companies?

Ok, lets get to brass tacks here. What exactly is your specific beef with the company known as Ameriflight? Because its obvious that there's some sort of personal beef here that's apparent in your postings.

Insofar as IFR at night in the mountains not being smart for a single pilot operation. I did it for years, in both single engine and multi-engine aircraft. And Im still alive today as I type this. Was I just lucky to be alive and just don't know it? How do you know the plane, pilot, and environment aren't compatible? Because of accidents that have been due to pilot error, or things unrelated to those items? How do those figure in?

Pax airlines do a completely different mission, with different equipment, and with crews. Compare apples to apples. Empire has had their share of accidents too, another guy I knew being killed on takeoff at FLG back when I was flying cargo.

I've never flown cargo out west, but I've spent significant amounts of time all over the western US as a flight instructor, ferry pilot, and in my personal flying. I also have multiple personal friends who have flown for AMF or similar companies. You might disagree with me, but don't assume I'm completely ignorant of the risks involved just because I haven't worked where you work.

jrh, you may have flown out west. But not having flown the actual cargo ops and seeing how things go, what is expected, how decisions are made, what the actual operating conditions are in the company, etc; you cannot speak with any kind of authority on those. Have you noticed that my comments on here are on 135 cargo flying, and my comments regarding AMF are neither supportive nor critical? Do you know why that is? Because I haven't flown for them, even though Ive got a good few years flying cargo on the same routes, from the same base, and in the same airplanes. I can't speak to what they may or may not be doing wrong, because to do so would be out of ignorance. It'd be like me saying that just because I flew fighter jets out over the ocean a few times in my military career, that Im now qualified to speak to the safety, or lack thereof, of Navy aircraft carrier operations. There are indeed some things one needs to experience in order to make informed commentary on, rather than just tossing random darts at various things.
 
I know one thing that I'll never flying night mountain ops without again... a radar altimeter(or equivalent). There are just so many black holes with an airport in the middle of them out there, invisible mountains on all sides. There are a few airports I HATED going into at night. I would generally be really high coming in just to assure terrain clearance.
 
I know one thing that I'll never flying night mountain ops without again... a radar altimeter(or equivalent). There are just so many black holes with an airport in the middle of them out there, invisible mountains on all sides. There are a few airports I HATED going into at night. I would generally be really high coming in just to assure terrain clearance.
Having been to an airport previously during the day helps. A lot.
 
Having been to an airport previously during the day helps. A lot.
It sure does, but that's not always how it works. I've actually built my own approaches in the garmin for night vmc into some VFR only airports. It doesn't change the wx requirements for going into there, which are still WAY above basic VFR.
 
Ok, lets get to brass tacks here. What exactly is your specific beef with the company known as Ameriflight? Because its obvious that there's some sort of personal beef here that's apparent in your postings.

I'm sorry if that's the way I've come across. It's completely unintentional. I don't have any specific beef with Ameriflight.

If you're talking about all the references I've made to AMF, it's only because they were the ones who had the accident this thread is about and they're the stereotype of freight flying as a sector. It's easy to do an NTSB search for "Ameriflight" and find a bunch of accident reports. Basically, AMF is an easy target for what I see as a more widespread problem.
 
I'm sorry if that's the way I've come across. It's completely unintentional. I don't have any specific beef with Ameriflight.

If you're talking about all the references I've made to AMF, it's only because they were the ones who had the accident this thread is about and they're the stereotype of freight flying as a sector. It's easy to do an NTSB search for "Ameriflight" and find a bunch of accident reports. Basically, AMF is an easy target for what I see as a more widespread problem.

Ok, I can see where you're coming from on that. Thank you for clearing that up.
 
He won't get it Mike. What's worse than not getting it, is not understanding you don't get it.

There's a difference between not getting it and getting it, but disagreeing with it.

Why does this bother you guys so much? Ok, you think I'm wrong. A guy on the internet is wrong. Big deal.

We've pounded this topic into the sand. All the lurkers can read this thread and come to their own conclusions now.

Happy New Year!
 
That was the point I was trying to make. Maybe the equipment is part of the problem.

Well you do realize that AMF operates Brazilias right? Maybe they should start using them to carry 120lbs of canceled checks...

Happy new year!
 
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