American Eagle told to play ball or become Comair-II
- Thread starter subpilot
- Start date
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
The company has repeatedly done whatever the hell it wants in regards to flow- this is an empty promise. Mind your own business.
You've made it clear that you got yours, and the
More like two. Watching CVG go from a bustling hub to a ghost town was pretty damned quick.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Why so angry? Am I saying you guys are in a good position? Am I not allowed to give my opinion?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Regional Pilots: VOTE NO TO CONCESSIONS.
THIS TIME- Everybody votes no! ALL our mainline partners are making money, and they STILL want to squeeze us for more? THEY KNOW that the drying up of the pipeline of new, cheap first officers will force them to eventually raise pay. Anything we give them now will just be something we have to scratch and fight for to get back later.
There's no reason to give concessions to a profitable company. IF EVERYBODY VOTES NO, THERE'S NOWHERE TO GO.
I already texted my LEC reps with my thoughts. NO CONCESSIONS, NO WAVERING.
THIS TIME- Everybody votes no! ALL our mainline partners are making money, and they STILL want to squeeze us for more? THEY KNOW that the drying up of the pipeline of new, cheap first officers will force them to eventually raise pay. Anything we give them now will just be something we have to scratch and fight for to get back later.
There's no reason to give concessions to a profitable company. IF EVERYBODY VOTES NO, THERE'S NOWHERE TO GO.
I already texted my LEC reps with my thoughts. NO CONCESSIONS, NO WAVERING.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I'm not angry- I'm just saying it like it is. You've made it clear that you don't give a rip about anybody but yourself, which means your stance on anything concerning anyone else is entirely suspect. Be quiet.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I am not going to be quiet.
How have I made it 'clear you don't give a rip about anybody else but yourself'?
Nick
Well-Known Member
Hey Nick,
I happy am to inform you that it does snow in Bakersfield, did so on Jan. 25th 1999, and it shut down the whole city along with making the national news. Not bad, plus I got to miss a day of 7th grade because of the snow! Not sure if this changes your argument
Guess what would happen if we diverted to Bakersfield and it was snowing out, nsmith2224?
You'd be doing the walkaround while I make a cup of tea in the galley.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
At the time CVG was dismantled, I don't think CMR had much of a base there. They'd already been pushed to New York, which is where Delta seems to base all the regionals that it wants to kill (Freedom II and Pinnacle).
amorris311
Well-Known Member
You drink that water? Now I know why you're so skinny.Guess what would happen if we diverted to Bakersfield and it was snowing out, nsmith2224?
You'd be doing the walkaround while I make a cup of tea in the galley.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
So the big question, why was CVG decimated?
higney85
Property of Scheduling
In all seriousness, without a thread hijack for no reason, I wish the AE guys the best. I don't see the AE feed being able to be replaced quickly when they want to qual guys on the E175, and fly the 145/700.... Nor do I see the FAA "OK" with that either, but I am wrong more times than not.
Mgmt across the board is playing a game I like to call "cool guy at the bar"... They will see how far they can make it with the "hot chick". If unsuccessful, they still know the girlfriend is at the house. It's not right, but there is nobody saying "they can't" unless they try. Please don't take the analogy offensively, but I think it makes the point clearly.
In the end, everyone knows mgmt chasing one thing, in this case- profit margin. You can't alter fuel or mx much, so the variable is pricing pressure and labor. Pricing is being tested, as is labor. You can't blame mgmt for trying to enhance the profit margin, but at the end of the day the decision is NOT "profit" when it's your own family, and the families of guys/gals we all call "colleagues".
It's a shame this industry has come to this point. For the short term, management is winning. Endeavor (pinnacle corp) was in BK and now DL is making a profit. PSA was profitable, and now are more so. Pricing pressure is now on a "full press" from mgmt into the labor ranks. What I cannot fathom is the "long term". How will pilots come to any regional, or better yet pursue a career path of a "pilot" with what is offered from the industry as a whole? No stability, low pay, no progression...? The pipeline is pretty dry already. With the 1500/R-ATP rules in effect you cannot just say "yea, I'll go be a pilot NOW", the timeline and cost to entry doesn't justify the ROI calculation.
This industry is changing for sure. Major Airlines, as a whole are turning great profits, IATA predicts only continued growth going forward, but in the end something is going to snap. Whether it's a pilot shortage from qualified pilots, or a lack of qualified pilots willing to do the job for the current "offers" is to be determined. The "qualified vs willing" issue can be fixed pretty quick. An LOA for pay/benes and maybe a signing bonus can fix the problem. Looking down the timeline, that doesn't work beyond 12-24 months when retirements really start, while capacity growth is warranted on the supply/demand curve.
There isn't the "qualified" factor at that point. The option then is only consolidation. Sure, 50 seaters are being parked, but in doing so with less airframes due to no pilot availability. Majors are already consolidating into only a few choice mega-carriers.
There are markets either not served or under-served that decay profitability, which then puts mgmt in the hot seat to shareholders and the public. Larger airframes, with the "major airline" contracts accompany the new airframes, but the infrastructure for filling the seats (regionals) is compromised which creates a domino effect to mgmt's disadvantage.
A magic 8-ball would be nice to have right now. In the world of reality, mgmt has asked for what they want and they unfortunately swing a realistic stick. Negotiations should be able to improve things a bit, but at the end of the day the mem rat is the deciding piece.
Good luck guys.
Mgmt across the board is playing a game I like to call "cool guy at the bar"... They will see how far they can make it with the "hot chick". If unsuccessful, they still know the girlfriend is at the house. It's not right, but there is nobody saying "they can't" unless they try. Please don't take the analogy offensively, but I think it makes the point clearly.
In the end, everyone knows mgmt chasing one thing, in this case- profit margin. You can't alter fuel or mx much, so the variable is pricing pressure and labor. Pricing is being tested, as is labor. You can't blame mgmt for trying to enhance the profit margin, but at the end of the day the decision is NOT "profit" when it's your own family, and the families of guys/gals we all call "colleagues".
It's a shame this industry has come to this point. For the short term, management is winning. Endeavor (pinnacle corp) was in BK and now DL is making a profit. PSA was profitable, and now are more so. Pricing pressure is now on a "full press" from mgmt into the labor ranks. What I cannot fathom is the "long term". How will pilots come to any regional, or better yet pursue a career path of a "pilot" with what is offered from the industry as a whole? No stability, low pay, no progression...? The pipeline is pretty dry already. With the 1500/R-ATP rules in effect you cannot just say "yea, I'll go be a pilot NOW", the timeline and cost to entry doesn't justify the ROI calculation.
This industry is changing for sure. Major Airlines, as a whole are turning great profits, IATA predicts only continued growth going forward, but in the end something is going to snap. Whether it's a pilot shortage from qualified pilots, or a lack of qualified pilots willing to do the job for the current "offers" is to be determined. The "qualified vs willing" issue can be fixed pretty quick. An LOA for pay/benes and maybe a signing bonus can fix the problem. Looking down the timeline, that doesn't work beyond 12-24 months when retirements really start, while capacity growth is warranted on the supply/demand curve.
There isn't the "qualified" factor at that point. The option then is only consolidation. Sure, 50 seaters are being parked, but in doing so with less airframes due to no pilot availability. Majors are already consolidating into only a few choice mega-carriers.
There are markets either not served or under-served that decay profitability, which then puts mgmt in the hot seat to shareholders and the public. Larger airframes, with the "major airline" contracts accompany the new airframes, but the infrastructure for filling the seats (regionals) is compromised which creates a domino effect to mgmt's disadvantage.
A magic 8-ball would be nice to have right now. In the world of reality, mgmt has asked for what they want and they unfortunately swing a realistic stick. Negotiations should be able to improve things a bit, but at the end of the day the mem rat is the deciding piece.
Good luck guys.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
My take was that CVG was too close to DTW, with far less O&D and international demand in general. Too many markets between the 2 over-lapped, and it just didn't make sense in the big picture. Much like why MEM is being totally de-hubbed, DL would rather route those pax thru ATL/DTW. In the US/AA merger, I would expect PHX to shrink quite a bit if not be de-hubbed, but we'll see. It will likely retain most of its Southwest, West Coast, and Hawaii flying at least for the first few years. However, it is too close to LAX/DFW for most markets it serves.
nsmith2224
Well-Known Member
Guess what would happen if we diverted to Bakersfield and it was snowing out, nsmith2224?
You'd be doing the walkaround while I make a cup of tea in the galley.
If we divert to Bakersfield for some un-godly reason, and it happens to be snowing were not going anywhere anytime fast! De-ice equipment in Bakersfield? That's an oxymoron! On side note, I will be getting in my truck and driving home in this what would be apocalyptic event
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
If I was the NC I would counter with the company wants but make them put a lot more on the line it this goes Tits Up. What I would change is in Blue.
The company would agree to increase the "metering" commitment under the existing 824 agreement from 20 to 30 beginning in September 2014. They would still send 20 per month or 50% of the AA new hire classes until then (subject to metering and ALPA’s grievance)
They would increase the percentage of new hire obligations under the "protected pilot" agreement to 50% from the current 35% and send a minimum of 30 per month if AA hires 60 or more that month.
The greater 50 or 50% from the total number of new hires at US and AA and pilots get to pick what side of the fence they want to go to.
Downside
The agreement would extend until 2024 with little opportunity to amend it.
Not a big hit, in the two amended rounds I have been around for we ended up giving up more than we got.
We would have to transition to a compensation model that incorporates wage caps for Captains at 12 years and 4 years for First Officers very similar to what the pilots at PSA recently agreed to. The transition would occur over roughly a four-year period.
No problem with this as long as a FO starts getting CA pay at year 5. I mean if there shouldn't be a reason why a FO isn't going to upgrade within 4 years the company has nothing to lose. Cost them nothing.
Per diem would be reduced by $.20 on the date
No, we are in line with the IRS standard rate.
We would accrue vacation at a slightly different rate and would lose the fifth week altogether.
Why? If no pilot is going to be here more than 12 years they will never get a 5th week.
Allow the company to train crews on the EMB 175 months before we receive it and then return them to their previous equipment until the deliveries begin.
How many crew are we talking about? Will the FAA sign off on it?
We would adopt a 401k plan and sick accrual system that mirrors the current PSA contract.
I am OK with is, it starts out less than our but ends up costing more on the back end.
Our current profit sharing plan would be suspended.
Give us back our old bonus program and I will maybe think about it.
The company would agree to increase the "metering" commitment under the existing 824 agreement from 20 to 30 beginning in September 2014. They would still send 20 per month or 50% of the AA new hire classes until then (subject to metering and ALPA’s grievance)
They would increase the percentage of new hire obligations under the "protected pilot" agreement to 50% from the current 35% and send a minimum of 30 per month if AA hires 60 or more that month.
The greater 50 or 50% from the total number of new hires at US and AA and pilots get to pick what side of the fence they want to go to.
Downside
The agreement would extend until 2024 with little opportunity to amend it.
Not a big hit, in the two amended rounds I have been around for we ended up giving up more than we got.
We would have to transition to a compensation model that incorporates wage caps for Captains at 12 years and 4 years for First Officers very similar to what the pilots at PSA recently agreed to. The transition would occur over roughly a four-year period.
No problem with this as long as a FO starts getting CA pay at year 5. I mean if there shouldn't be a reason why a FO isn't going to upgrade within 4 years the company has nothing to lose. Cost them nothing.
Per diem would be reduced by $.20 on the date
No, we are in line with the IRS standard rate.
We would accrue vacation at a slightly different rate and would lose the fifth week altogether.
Why? If no pilot is going to be here more than 12 years they will never get a 5th week.
Allow the company to train crews on the EMB 175 months before we receive it and then return them to their previous equipment until the deliveries begin.
How many crew are we talking about? Will the FAA sign off on it?
We would adopt a 401k plan and sick accrual system that mirrors the current PSA contract.
I am OK with is, it starts out less than our but ends up costing more on the back end.
Our current profit sharing plan would be suspended.
Give us back our old bonus program and I will maybe think about it.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I worked for DL and lived in CVG for a number of years. The draw down IMO wasn't something that started with the merger, but much earlier. I moved back here to AZ. in 03, and I was just starting to see the beginning of the draw down. I don't know if the winds of merger were starting to blow then or not. But the decimation of CVG didn't just start with the merger. It was a slow eventual death.
And I full expect KPHX and terminal 4 to become a ghost town with the clear exception of WN.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Oh no, you're totally right. Delta started heavily shifting CVG from a mainline hub to a regional mega-hub well before the merger with Northwest. But the merger was the "final nail in the coffin" so to speak, since by then CVG had become mostly RJs and had lost all but CDG internationally IIRC and now had to compete with DTW. They sadly stood no chance at that point. I'm sure the decision to axe 50 seat flying didn't help either, but CVG was doomed more or less regardless.
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