American Eagle @ Flight Safety?

[AV8TOR]

GREAT POINT!!, like you, I also have the funds to attend the program…but there are still a lot of what ifs…

Isn’t it all about the Seniority Number? Once you get with a company you are giving that number, the higher the more Senior? So if you are hired on with 300 hours, you are ‘higher’ on the food chain, Right? Or Wrong? I’m not too sure how any of that works as of yet.

The question that I have is:
If you are hired with ONLY 300 hrs (Pilot A), let’s say he is given number 200 …..then a CFI with 1500 hours is hired (Pilot B) say 5 months down the line, and he is number 250, Granted he has more experience but isn’t the FO, that by now would have around 675 (based off 75/month), be more senior than the 1500 hour pilot?
(The numbers are just guess’s I know that you don’t get hours from your Class Date, vacation, sick days and the time that you are sitting on reserve, this is hypothetical)

The way the trend is going and from what I have read is that upgrade time takes anywhere from 2 years or possible longer, depending on the airline. So wouldn’t you have the time to upgrade? If it does take you 3 years to upgrade that 300 hour pilot would have Ball Park 3000 hours “A FO is going to be limited to 1000hrs a year”

But like you said you are getting the PIC, while the other pilot is logging SIC. This is just my thought, I’m not sure how any of that works, would a 1500 hour CFI be upgraded to CPT before the 300 pilot, even thou the 300 hour pilot has the higher seniority number?

 

[DE727UPS]

Upgrading and your status as a crewmember always depend on seniority, which is based on date of hire. If you went to ASA with 300 hours, you are still senior to everyone hired after you, no matter how much time they have. Now, when it comes to upgrading to Capt, it's based in seniority, just like everything else. However, there may be company mins, insurance mins, and FAA ATP mins, that hold you back. I've heard that some of the low time Gulfstreamers that went to Pinnacle haven't been able to upgrade because they don't meet the ATP mins under part 61. I'm not sure of the specifics. Maybe someone else can speak to it but it's a problem that you won't encounter unless you do one of these low time hire programs.

 

[DE727UPS]

Anytime you train on a new airplane at an airline, there is a period where you are somewhat "babysat" until you get some experience under your belt. That's where what you bring to the cockpit depends on your background and experience. My first couple of months on the 757, I felt legal, but not up to the speed I'd like. However, since I had over 1000 hours as an F/O on the 727, I was able to bring to contribute a lot to the operation because of my background. A 300 hour pilot who's type specific training is all in the sim doesn't have the background to offer much to the operation. Therefore, his "babysitting" time is going to be much longer. Is that safe? ASA and the FAA think so. I guess that's good enough. I'm just glad I'll never be in a position, as a Captain,

 

[aviator]

I don't post often here, but as a former FSI instructor/check pilot and current 121 pilot I thought I'd chime in.

I have never been a fan of these direct track programs. Can an idiot somehow filter thru this program?

Yes.

I had a student who I woudn't hire to walk my own dog get accepted in this program. Did he make it? I don't really know but it was a travesty that this smuck was even given a look.

In 121 training your IFR skills have to be secound nature. They don't train instrument pilots, they train CRJ/ERJ ect pilots. If you can't fly IFR solid they will not teach you.

These kids can call flaps up, after take off check, all day long but as pilots.....................

 

[AV8TOR]

.....um......what?!?!?.........

 

[Snow]

Just for info I spoke to an ASA training/check captain the other day and he said the low time FSI people do just as well as everyone else both in the sim and out on the line and he said they didn't need to be 'babysat' anymore than the 1500hr people.

 

[DE727UPS]

Yeah. Whatever. 300 hour pilots don't belong in jets.

Do you think ASA lowering their mins to 600/100 will hurt these low time bridge programs? After all, you'd potentially only be saving 300 hours by doing it if the mins are at 600.

By the way, since I'm here, the question you asked about established on the approach course is needle movement off the peg.

 

[jonboy34]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Whatever. 300 hour pilots don't belong in jets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually these "300 hour pilots" after going through the direct track program; the ground school on the ERJ, the 30 hours of ERJ sim, completing the sim checkride,- do far better than the 1500 hour guys when they get to the ASA indoc class. I have heard their skill level at that point is comparable to a 3-5000 pilot. Don't take my word for it, ask someone who is there now, ask them why all these 1500 hour guys want to partner up with the direct track guys while training at ASA...But you are right, a 300 hour pilot does not belong in a jet, but a ASA direct track student does, and does quite well.

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard their skill level at that point is comparable to a 3-5000 pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise the BS flag on this one. They may have rote, pavlov-dogs skills of manipulating a control or pushing a button, but the judgement, experience, and overall air sense is nothing compared to a 3000-5000 hour pilot.

That has to be one of the stupidest statements I've seen in print.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I have heard their skill level at that point is comparable to a 3-5000 pilot."

Oh my gawd....keep drinkin' that cool aid. Dumbest thing I ever heard.

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually these "300 hour pilots" after going through the direct track program; the ground school on the ERJ, the 30 hours of ERJ sim, completing the sim checkride

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got 20 hours of F-16 time, and time in the sim. In no way do I think I can jump into the F-16 solo and pass an instrument check right now. And I have 5600 TT.

 

[ananoman]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually these "300 hour pilots" after going through the direct track program; the ground school on the ERJ, the 30 hours of ERJ sim, completing the sim checkride,- do far better than the 1500 hour guys when they get to the ASA indoc class. I have heard their skill level at that point is comparable to a 3-5000 pilot. Don't take my word for it, ask someone who is there now, ask them why all these 1500 hour guys want to partner up with the direct track guys while training at ASA...But you are right, a 300 hour pilot does not belong in a jet, but a ASA direct track student does, and does quite well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess we should not be supprised by this. If marketing says it enough times, someone will believe it.

I will grant you that your direct track person will probably do very well in training. Since they have already completed the same training prior to arriving at ASA, they would have to be a complete retard to fail out of training.

So, back to the original argument. Do we define airmanship by the ability to push buttons and recite a checklist from memory, or should we include situational awareness, leadership and the ability to make decisions?

Maybe you really believe what you wrote in your post. If you do, I have to ask, would you be willing to get on a RJ with your family if you knew that both pilots up front were both direct track graduates with 300 hours? Or would you rather have two of the 3,000 - 5,000 hour guys who struggled a little during training?

 

[Cav]

jonboy34 I hope you are kidding but I somehow doubt it. Do you really place such little importance on decision making ability? Gee I can't wait to fly with the likes of you and the rest of the Chuck Yeager's coming out of the direct track program.

 

[Cav]

[ QUOTE ]
I will grant you that your direct track person will probably do very well in training. Since they have already completed the same training prior to arriving at ASA, they would have to be a complete retard to fail out of training.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding!

 

[skyrunner1500]

[ QUOTE ]
We had pilots training at the Academy who were 19 or 20 years old who had less than 300hrs and they were going back home to fly right seat in an Airbus for Austrian Airlines.
1000hrs and a type rating will get you a captain position with an Indian airline. Plus both these counties have stricter regulations than here in the states.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Austrians are already all type rated on either the 737 or the Fokker 70/100 and do their 'line flying under supervision' part for another couple of weeks. That means they are actually flying the line, but there is still another first officer in the cockpit riding the jumpseat who can take the part of the 'student-F/O' if anything goes wrong.


As far as the regulations being stricter over here, that is only partly true. The practical part of the training is really a joke over here. No single-engine-out procedures on a multi-checkride, etc. Personally I don't know of anyone who ever busted a ride with an examiner, whereas the theoretical part is much more intensive than all I have seen in the states so far. People study for several months(years) full time and attend a lot of ground school classes for one written exam. And many still fail them on their first try. There are also no computerized testing centers over here, just one main office in every country where you can take the exams on given dates directly with the administration.

From what I have experienced, the ground part is way too much overemphazised over here and needs to be reformed, but that will not come. They are annoying us pilots with generalized questions and answers that need to be more specific if you want to profit from it. And for all the writtens after the private it is very difficult to get a good question bank to train with, because the administrations are not publishing anything for the public, all you can get are collections from the last ten years...

here it goes again: do the right networking to get good sample questions sold to you 'under the hand' for lots of money...you cannot pass the tests without good actual sample questions, I tried it in February and failed...finally got a retest scheduled for upcoming Monday. It was the next date available they do writtens in the administration...

 

[Rick]

The question is how hard the 300 hour guys work to get that position. All of the Fast Track guys have to be very good in all aspects to be able to pass the checkride, and also be able to show the instructors that they are able to be as good as or better than the 1500 hour guys. I can bet all of you out there know that a pilot can have 2000 hours in a cessna 152 and not be able to have the experience of a Fast Track guy, and even not of a FSA graduate. The excellent training that FSA gives there graduates is more meaningful than the hours that they earn. Hours of flying are important but what the most important is what you were doing in those hours; training, teaching IFR, VFR, using the correct procedures always. I can tell you that at the Fast Track training they don’t deal with people that are not willing to work very hard and have been working very hard in there skills and knowledge. Is easy to determine if candidate is not up to the challenge and therefore he is taken out of the program. You cannot judge a pilot only for the hour that he has!

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
I can bet all of you out there know that a pilot can have 2000 hours in a cessna 152 and not be able to have the experience of a Fast Track guy, and even not of a FSA graduate. The excellent training that FSA gives there graduates is more meaningful than the hours that they earn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a pretty staunch supporter of FSI, being an instructor there and all. I fully credit FSI with the success I've had so far, so early in my career...

That being said:

I think that it is highly unlikely that someone could have 2000 hours in a Cessna 152 and not have more valuable experience than a FSI guy. Sure, they would have some bad habits, and probably wouldn't want to fly the profiles like an FSI guy, but they would have real world experience. They would probably have experience with varying weather conditions that the avg Florida trained pilot doesn't have. Not to mention the fact that they have no experience outside of Florida. Most airports in the country are above sea level, and most pattern altitudes are above 1000' MSL...

I think FSI trains people really well for the aviation world, but it is just a start. There is NO substitute for hours. Let's all take a collective deep breath, and accept that the direct track gives someone an excellent START for a career with ASA or whomever. It does not make them excellent first officers. It absolultely doesn't make them anywhere close to captains.

G

 

[SteveC]

Being a good "stick" and having excellent knowledge are a great first step. Experience is what fills in all the blank spots that the low-time guys don't even know they have.

For example, I don't care how much book knowledge you have about thunderstorms, I want the guys in the front seats to have the experience of working their way safely around thunderstorms hundreds of times. Those guys know the traps that can catch the greenhorn, have seen what works and doesn't work, and will deliver me safely to my destination. That is an example of experience.

Working with ATC is another example of experience and how it can make a PIC's life easier. Give me a guy with a couple thousand hours of experience in the right seat 'cause I know that he will understand what makes the ATC system tick, what the controllers are looking for compared to what the pilots want, and can help put the pieces together for a safe and efficient flight.

Being a good pilot in the real world involves a lot more than the ability to fly a plane well.

I don't doubt that many of the programs being touted by the academies make pilots that are skilled and knowledgeable and are whiz-sticks. There is no way, though, that a 300 or 600 hour pilot has the experience to truly be a full-fledged asset in the cockpit of an airliner. I'm not saying that they are hazardous, just that they don't have the background to really help the PIC in all the ways that someone with two or three times as many hours can.

 

[MCP]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call putting down 25 grand or whatever the program costs for a job that pays $22,000/yr (or somewhere there abouts) spending money wisely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better not go to college then! LOL

With regards to the thread, if ASA asks FSA to train people to their standards, using their rules, with their checklists, in a formal and highly structured training evironment, and later asks those people to go through essentially the same interviews and checkrides while maintaining the same standards as every other applicant, how can their be a deliniation between who is better qualified Are the applicants not asked to perform the same duties? Are the applicants not asked to perform those same duties in the same environment? Are those applicants performing those same duties in the same environment not required to maintain the same standards? I seriously doubt the airline is thinking.."WOW, we can save some money...who cares if we have more accidents!". To think otherwise would be illogical, and for lack of a better term, stupid.

Are pilots with 1,000+ hrs more qualified to fly in certain aspects? Sure. Are they more qualified to fly a CRJ? Not nessacarily (sp?). Just because somebody spent the last 2 years in a Cessna or Piper does not make them more qualified to fly a high performance aircraft. The difference is in the training standardization and how the information that needs to be learned is conveyed and processed. The Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Gaurd prove that every year, as do airlines in other countries.

Is somebody who has 3000+ hours teaching in an R-22 a better helicopter pilot then somebody who has just completed a tour in Iraq flying the Apache with only 500 hrs.? Yes. But not flying a high performance helicopter.

Would a person who just spent 1,000+ hrs. instructing be considered a better investment to an airline then somebody who has been trained specifically to handle the job in question? I would seriously doubt it.

FSA isn't doing anything wrong by requiring more from those who didn't go to school there. It is imperative that they maintain THEIR standards with every person they send. Any descrepancy or flaw in ones abilites, especially since the job involves the lives of others, would reflect poorly on their company. If I owned a flight school, or any other business for that matter, I would do the same thing. I wouldn't send a person anywhere with my name in their pocket if I didn't know them or their work completely. I am actually suprised FSA allows people off the street into the program at all. I sure wouldn't. With or without a "flight check".

I think the problem with this whole arguement is that the term "ability" is relative. There are people out there that I'm sure barely passed all of their ratings tests, but they still passed. I am also sure there are people out there that absolutely ace everything thrown at them....both candidates being from the same school. Who has more "ability", and in the end who would make the better pilot? Therefore, I don't think there can really be any one definitive response regarding this debate. Not at least without being able to compare ALL pilots.

IMO, if you have the money, the strive, and the opportunity to go for a program like FSA offers, I say GO FOR IT! If you don't make it at least you know you tried your best (hopefully). Take some time to try and improve where you came up short. If you make it, more power to you. Heck, if I am presented with an opportunity like this next year I am definately going for it. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because either way you still leave with some fo the best flight training in the world.

My .02c

 

[MCP]

Sorry if my previous post was too long.

I may be wrong in what I stated since I have barely any flight experience but I still think it comes down to how you are trained.

But what do I know.