American Eagle @ Flight Safety?

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It's an agreement. Something that can make FS look good. Unfortunately, to get hired the company needs to be actually hiring. Currently, hiring at AE has slowed to a crawl and is only enough to fill attrition. I'd look at the other airlines and see what their projected hiring is as well. Sounds as if ASA has slowed too. If that is the case, CoEx may be the only real viable option out of this 'affiliation' w/FS.

While they guarantee you an interview, you do not necessarily end up with a job. I know someone who went to FS for the chance to interview with these carriers and they did not get hired. In fact, one so called 'interview' was only 4 questions! It seems they were just going through the motions in the interview so FS would be considered as holding up their end of the bargain. Also, since you only need to get an interview, why would you get the job over the others in the group when they have at least 1,000TT+, many with previous 121 or 135 experience? Food for thought before you lay down any money for such a program.



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Well, first of all, ASA is not slowing the hiring. They are going to maintain a high level at least through the rest of the year, and likely beyond if they don't get caught up.

As far as the interview goes, you have that before you do the training, so you do not expend any money on the program unless you are hired. You do not "lay down any money" before you already have the conditional offer of employment. You are hired unless you screw up the training, and that ball, of course, is in your court.

The Direct Track people are not considered at the expense of other people interviewing. ASA accepts 5 per month into the program. (Rausda correct me if I'm wrong about the number these days.)

Again, I only know about ASA's hiring levels, not the others, but if they sign an agreement with FSI for a certain number per month, they will have that many interviews as long as they are hiring. And since you don't pay for the program until you have had an interview and been accepted, you won't lose any money if the airline isn't hiring because you won't even get the interview in the first place.

G
 
PhilosopherPilot-

I was looking into the program also but as a candiate from the outside. From what the lady told me at FS, people from the outside have to pay 5k for multi and single evaluation flights, then are allowed to interview. Is this right? I just don't see why FS would make someone fork out 5k for roughly 15 hours of "evaluation flights."

Just curious what you have heard.
 
Well, if you didn't do any training at FSI they don't know much about you as a pilot. ASA won't hire someone unless they know they are getting a quality pilot. FSI would lose credibility if they backed anyone who came forward for the program, and ASA would eventually stop the program if FSI people started washing out.

They only recently have begun taking pilots from the outside for the direct track, so I don't know as much about it. It makes the most sense for someone who did their training at FSI, since they are then automatically qualified to interview with ASA.

If you come from the outside, yes you do have to be evaluated before you interview, so there is a little more involved. Of course, with several airlines affiliated, you have a good chance of being accepted by at least one.

Again, Rausda help me out here... I've been out of the system for a few months now.

G
 
Yes, Philosopher is correct. Candidates from the outside must go through a series of evaluation flights. There is a good reason for this, as he stated the airline contracts expect a certain proficiency from the pilots prior to starting the actual training. The flights are not just an evaluation, I have taught students quite a bit on these flights in an attempt to bring their instrument skills up to speed.
 
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has anyone heard anything regarding the agreement between FS and AE? Only 400 hours...I think that's a little low on the timeline. You are still wet behind the ears. Looking to see what other people have to say about this agreement...thanks for the info

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It's an agreement. Something that can make FS look good. Unfortunately, to get hired the company needs to be actually hiring. Currently, hiring at AE has slowed to a crawl and is only enough to fill attrition. I'd look at the other airlines and see what their projected hiring is as well. Sounds as if ASA has slowed too. If that is the case, CoEx may be the only real viable option out of this 'affiliation' w/FS.

While they guarantee you an interview, you do not necessarily end up with a job. I know someone who went to FS for the chance to interview with these carriers and they did not get hired. In fact, one so called 'interview' was only 4 questions! It seems they were just going through the motions in the interview so FS would be considered as holding up their end of the bargain. Also, since you only need to get an interview, why would you get the job over the others in the group when they have at least 1,000TT+, many with previous 121 or 135 experience? Food for thought before you lay down any money for such a program.



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The Direct Track program is more than an agreement between the airlines and FlightSafety. All three programs were written with the help of each airline using the actual checklists and procedures from their operation manuals. This helps provide better training and compensate a bit for the lower time. The final checkrides in the ERJ-145 are given by a check airman from the airline.

It is not a generic program where you go through the training and then get an interview, the interview is done first. If the airlines are not hiring then FSA will not run the program. Only the people who are given a Conditional Offer of Employment as a result of the interview go through the 10 week program, so there is no money put out for training unless you are conditionally hired, with the exception of people who are not FSA grads, they must complete the 3 week evaluation first.
As far as someone from the outside, I think Phil Pilot and Rausda covered it. The program was put together by the airlines and FSA from what each airline knows about the training and final product that FSA produces. There has to be some evaluation/standardization. Anyone can say they are a good pilot. I think the cost is $5000 but it is 12 ME 5hr SE 3 hrs Frasca and something like 15hr Ground School plus briefing and other misc costs. Again this evaluation was put together with the help of the airline.

In regards to the the person who had only 4 questions, that was the very first ExpressJet interviews and there was some confusion as to how the interview was going to be conducted. Things have been worked out and everything is running smoothly. If your friend did not get hired by ExpressJet, then he/she would have had an opportunity to interview with ASA unless they already did and did not get hired or they did not want to interview with anyone else.

AE does a 50 questiosn ATP test, an HR interview and a Technical interview. ASA does a 30 questions ATP and an HR and Tech interview with the candidates. The interviews are done one on one and there are no 1000 hour pilots interviewing, just direct track candidates from FSA.

Just for the record the Direct Track program started years ago with ASA and they do not have any hour requirements like AE and ExpressJet does only a CIME is required. There have been almost 200 pilots that have completed the program and not one person has washed out of Indoc once they arrive at ASA.
 
Pretty Much you have to pay $5000, do the ME/SE training as well as the FTD...then ground school? Once you complete that to FS standards, then you can interview with the regional of your choice?

So what if you pay the $5 grand, get there and just aren't to FS stand. what happens then? Do you loose that money, is there a refresher course?

Once you do pass the eval. and you do get the conditional letter of hire, What is the usual time before you get a class date? Also what is the training that you do. And lastly how long does everything usually take, regardless, of the airline that you choose?
 
Why not just call Tonya Garey (the career developement coordinator) at 772-564-7600 and ask her all of these questions. Get answers to all your questions from the horses mouth. I think it would be more benificial than word of mouth and heresay from an online BB. My .02!
 
"I don't like the idea of 400 hour pilots, FSA trained or not, flying around in RJ's. Never have, never will. With that kind of time, you are being baby sat for your first couple hundred hours and don't have the experience to contribute your fair share to the operation. It's a burden on the Captain. "

DE727UPS have you ever actually flown with a 400hr pilot while flying for a 135 or 121 operation? It seems to me that you had to work long and hard to get where you are today and you believe that anyone else who doesn't have to work equally long and hard doesn't deserve an airline job. No doubt the airline industry has changed much since your did your initial training and things aren’t the same now as they were 'back in the day' I'm sure if such a program was available back then you would have considered it also.

Plus this country seems to be one of the few places where such high time requirements exist to get an airline job. We had pilots training at the Academy who were 19 or 20 years old who had less than 300hrs and they were going back home to fly right seat in an Airbus for Austrian Airlines. 1000hrs and a type rating will get you a captain position with an Indian airline. Plus both these counties have stricter regulations than here in the states. Qantas and many others also have their own internally run 'direct track' programs. I don't know about you but I'd rather fly with a 400hr highly trained pilot than a 1500hr poorly trained pilot any day of the week. It's quality and not quantity that counts in my opinion.
 
Snow, I thought the same thing before I started instructing. Afterwards I changed my mind. There is no substitute for experience and someone with minimal time has not had enough time to gain such experience. I also think that instructing is a good introduction to a 2 person cockpit. Like it or not, the captains I fly with say that they resent someone who waltzed into the right seat because daddy had a big checking account. In my opinion, the FSA fast track programs are only slightly more desireable than PFT. Go pay your dues and you'll be respected a lot more. Just my .02.
 
"DE727UPS have you ever actually flown with a 400hr pilot while flying for a 135 or 121 operation?"

Are you kidding me? I've never flown for an airline that needed to hire such low time pilots. Thank gawd I'll never have too.

"It seems to me that you had to work long and hard to get where you are today and you believe that anyone else who doesn't have to work equally long and hard doesn't deserve an airline job."

I think someone's long and hard work is part of the seasoning process that makes a good airline pilot.

"No doubt the airline industry has changed much since your did your initial training and things aren’t the same now as they were 'back in the day'"

Not really, I don't see it as all that different.

"I'm sure if such a program was available back then you would have considered it also."

Nope. I wouldn't have put myself into that kind of debt. I would have instructed to build time. I actually got a VFR 135 job pretty early on and didn't end up doing a whole lot of instructing to build time. However, having my CFI has been an big asset to my career ever since I got it in 1981.
 
I just got back from a trip and wanted to chime in. I just want to start out by saying that this is just the path that I took and I am not endorsing it for anybody else or saying it is the only way.

I got all of my ratings at FSA from PPL through CFII. Where I'm from it would actually be much more expensive and take more time to get my ratings going the Part 61 route. After FSI, I interviewd and was put on "The List". In the meantime I went back home up north and instructed part 61 for the local FBO for about 400-450 hours. I was on pace to make about $10,000 - $11,000 for the year and had about 2 years minimum of instructing to look forward to. This is a second career for me and I was smart with my money from my first "real job" so was able to afford the program without too much financial hardship.I received a phone call about interviewing for the ASA Direct Track program,and decided to persue it.

Now let me emphasize, that this is not a PFT operation. You could have the largest wallet in the world and never be considered for an interview. You have to submit your info to FSA. It is screened by the folks at FSA and all of your training records are scrutinized to narrow down who's packets will be sent to the airline. The airline then selects from those packets who will be given the opportunity to interview. You then go to Atlanta and go through the same interview process with the same line captains/HR people as off-the-street pilots. If they like you you are given a conditional offer of employment which hinges on you passing the training @ FSA. At any point throughout this process they can ask you to leave. At the end of the program you then have to pass the same airline checkride given by the director of standards! Only then are you awarded a class date with the airline.

As far as low time pilots go, I can't speak for other programs, but the ASA pilots perform EXTREMELY well. They have a lower washout rate than other CFI's, corporate, or airline pilots coming into training. The ASA instructors will even tell you themselves, and they did numerous times throughout class, that the rest of the folks were already behind us and would struggle to keep up with us throughout training.

In my class there were 24 pilots total, 5 of which were low time Direct Tack graduates. Not one of us needed any extra training, tutoring, CPT's, or sims. All of us passed our checkrides with no problems whatsoever. There were corporate pilots with thousands of hours in my class who needed extra sessions and one failed his checkride. There were former Mesa pilots who struggled badly throughout training. There was a 135 single-pilot freight pilot with a good amount of time who was asked to leave and never come back! All of us were VERY well prepard by FSA and continue to do well. The program works and provides ASA with a good number of well trained new hires who aren't going to go anywhere for a few years.
 
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Now let me emphasize, that this is not a PFT operation.

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It's close though....you would have never gotten the interview with ASA if you had not shown the willingness to put 25 large down on training.

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There were corporate pilots with thousands of hours in my class who needed extra sessions and one failed his checkride. There were former Mesa pilots who struggled badly throughout training. There was a 135 single-pilot freight pilot with a good amount of time who was asked to leave and never come back!

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No one has ever said that there are experienced pilots who just aren't made for the job.....that will always be the case in any career or industry you go to.

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All of us were VERY well prepard by FSA and continue to do well. The program works and provides ASA with a good number of well trained new hires who aren't going to go anywhere for a few years.

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I'm sure your training was very good, and I'm sure you did well in training with the airline. This type of training has been a point of controversy for years. It has really never been about skill, although 400 hour pilots are pretty green, and learning how to do your job with 50 or 70 people in the back is just not the way to go about business, in my opinion. The issue has always been about selling out. The people who go through these programs at FSA are esentially selling out other pilots...their peers. If they had not shown the willingness to put down quite a bit of money, they would have never recieved preferential treatment. On the same note, there's no way in hell ASA or any other airline would pick up a resume off the fax machine from a 400 hour pilot and say "let's interview him". All three airlines that have these direct track programs with FSA have had a long standing relationship with FlightSafety. The two carriers that fly the jungle jet only signed up after they learned that FSA was going to get an ERJ simulator. Hmmm....airline specific training in a simulator of an aircraft that the airline flies.....sounds pretty much like PFT to me. These kids are going to put 25 grand down to get a preferential interview, then get training in the exact airplane the airline flies, with the same procedures. Of course ASA, ExpressJet and Eagle are going to take the deal...that's a lot of potentially saved money. But in the end, nobody likes these programs because the pilot who elected to pay the money for an interview is essentially selling out everyone else who is working hard for what they're getting out of life.....
 
You do have to draw the line somewhere though. Money figures in nearly every aspect of life. It is unfortunate, but a fact nonetheless. If your daddy has the money to send you to Harvard, you'll most likely get a high paying job upon graduation. If you have the money to do your training at FSI (from daddy or Key Bank...), you gain the connections that the company has. In fact, that is mostly what you are paying for, the name of the school on your resume, and the connections.

I think there is a very large difference in paying for a job with an airline by paying for your right seat position, and paying for training that will give a time advantage over your peers. ASA doesn't save money on the direct track people. They still have to put them through the complete indoc process. There are potential savings, in that not one Direct Track person has EVER washed out. (Think about that for a second...) They therefore don't have to waste money on them. Once you arrive for basic indoc, the direct track people are just like everyone else, a new employee. They aren't singled out. They aren't trained separately.

I do see your side. It is frustrating when you see people taking advantage of connections they have made, merely because they have the money to do so. Unfortunately, that is the way life works. One need not look any further than the president of the United States to see that is true.

I am not a direct track person, just so you know. By the way, those that do the internship with ASA get very reduced hiring minima as well. Am I "cheating" by doing the ASA internship? After all, I wouldn't have been able to do the internship if I hadn't gone to FlightSafety.

G
 
I wouldn't call putting down 25 grand or whatever the program costs for a job that pays $22,000/yr (or somewhere there abouts) spending money wisely. Especially since you can go instruct somewhere, FSA or anywhere else for that matter(yes other schools have twins and instructors fly more per month even in gassssppppp Part 61 world), save money and build experience in just a few more months. Honestly I think it sounds just plain lazy to me. The entitlement of the microwave generation kills me sometimes. I guess if you can't get something right now it's better to take the easy way out.
 
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I wouldn't call putting down 25 grand or whatever the program costs for a job that pays $22,000/yr (or somewhere there abouts) spending money wisely. Especially since you can go instruct somewhere....
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To each their own path. As a professional in my current Talent Search Career I paid almost $50k (1991-1996) for a Bachelor Degree. My first job paid me $26k in 1996. Good deal? Looks even worse than spending $25k for $22k in salary. And almost just as bad as those who front $80k for $25k in salary. But now 9 years later I made more than 3 times that amount. Same benefit with ASA in my opinion. Maybe in 10 years you do not go from $25k to $85k, but I bet 10 years out the reward is there for you even with a Regional; and you are closer to that next career move too. So get in early and then in 9 years your'll make more, unless pilot's are reduced to being viewed merely as public transportation bus drivers in 10 years.

There are many ways to "pay your dues" per say. Some flight instruct. Some do direct track. Some go to a flight academy and others a FBO. So just like my college career. Did I do it the best way? Not sure, since there are tons of colleges who would have done it for more money or even less money for the same long term result. I just chose my path because my parents said it was best and at 18 when I began in 1991, I did not know any better. I wanted to be a pilot and they told me no they would not support that and if I do not do as I am told and get a Business Degree, I can leave the house and continue to work as a burger flipper. So I went and did what they thought was best, it was my only choice.

Now 10 years after my graduation I am on track to get to my first dream of flying. I just have to do it on my own and I have a plan that works best for my personal situation. Flight Safety is most likely my program of choice. The ASA track fits me the best, but I will instruct if that program is not offered in 2 years or if I am not picked. Either way, I still get to my goal. My thoughts are that I'll be about 34 years old when I begin my flight school (I am a non-current PPL with 90 hours but need all other ratings through FSA). Due to this age factor I think speed is very important in getting into a Regional. ASA's Direct Track through Flight Saftey would be a dream for me and I hope my business and personal maturity help in securing such an opoportunity. It is a great starting point for my career change in my eyes.

For one, it'll get me where I need to go quicker than normal. Which due to my more matuer age, I would need such an advantage. And do not say it was a lazy way in this case. I worked very hard for 10 years saving up $50k of my own cash so I feel comfortable taking out a loan for the rest to cover myself. I work 55-60 hours a week and can not accomplish my flight goal any other way beyond saving up money, being debt free when I start flight school, and then walking out of this job to get into my new career full steam. For me, I think it is the bet path if it is still available in a couple years.

Now for someone else, the best path may be to spend less money and take more time to get to a Regional. If I began this journey 14 years ago and had the support of my family in being a pilot (not financial support but words of encouragement and the ability to live with them while I pursued this dream since they let me do this through college), I would end up with my local FBO on the weekends and take college courses during the week. At my age and with my line of work, I can not afford to take a long road to a Regional.

So I think every person has a unique situation and there is a program that works best for each person. There are no short-cuts in aviation from what I see. Everyone works very hard to get where they are. So I just wish everyone the best in what ever road they choose.

And remember, the surgeon who is operating on your friend took out a $200k college loan, worked for free as an intern, and lived off nothing but steamed noodles in a studio apartment for 8-10 years of his life. And then he made $30k in his first training job in the hospital and did his best to suffer through paying the loans and working a terrible work schedule. All knowing that in 5 more years he would be the professional he set out to be and then life will be good as he is then in control of the profession he loves since he'll get to "captain" his surgery and fianlly be getting paid what he is worth. All professions are a long road to the money, all offer several paths to choose to get to the money, and all make you put up an investment in yourself to reap the long term rewards. So make the investment in yourself that makes the most sense, and then enjoy the path you take to get there.

So best of luck to you all. I look forward to sharing the skys with people who have a passion for the business. Now go ahead and tear into my opinions, since it's so much fun to hear from those who disagree.
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And remember, the surgeon who is operating on your friend took out a $200k college loan, worked for free as an intern, and lived off nothing but steamed noodles in a studio apartment for 8-10 years of his life. And then he made $30k in his first training job in the hospital and did his best to suffer through paying the loans and working a terrible work schedule. All knowing that in 5 more years he would be the professional he set out to be and then life will be good as he is then in control of the profession he loves since he'll get to "captain" his surgery and fianlly be getting paid what he is worth. :

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But that is the surgeon's only option. There lies the difference.
 
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And remember, the surgeon who is operating on your friend took out a $200k college loan, worked for free as an intern, and lived off nothing but steamed noodles in a studio apartment for 8-10 years of his life. And then he made $30k in his first training job in the hospital and did his best to suffer through paying the loans and working a terrible work schedule. All knowing that in 5 more years he would be the professional he set out to be and then life will be good as he is then in control of the profession he loves since he'll get to "captain" his surgery and fianlly be getting paid what he is worth. :

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But that is the surgeon's only option. There lies the difference.

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It is not your place to tell anyone what their options are. Speak for yourself, and let other people make the decisions that fit them best. It is easy to resent others because they have the money to go through a program such as the Direct Track, but that is how life operates. The fact is that many of the people take out loans to be in such programs, so they are paying their dues, just in monetary form instead of time. Everything in life is a trade-off.

For me, the direct track wasn't what I wanted to do, but that doesn't mean that it isn't just fine for someone else. There are several people here right now that started training at FSI more than a year after I did, and they will always have a higher seniority at ASA than I will. (Assuming I even get hired here as a pilot.) How can anyone fault them for making what seems to have shaped up to be a shrewd career move?

G
 
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....For me, the direct track wasn't what I wanted to do, but that doesn't mean that it isn't just fine for someone else. There are several people here right now that started training at FSI more than a year after I did, and they will always have a higher seniority at ASA than I will. (Assuming I even get hired here as a pilot.) How can anyone fault them for making what seems to have shaped up to be a shrewd career move?

G

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In general I agree with what you are saying in regards to the Direct Track program, but keep in mind that some people will use the exact same justification (see bold print above) regarding the Gulfstream type progams as well. "It worked for them, therefore it must be O.K." is not always a valid justification in my book when there are other *big picture* issues involved.
 
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It is not your place to tell anyone what their options are. Speak for yourself, and let other people make the decisions that fit them best. It is easy to resent others because they have the money to go through a program such as the Direct Track, but that is how life operates.

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First of all my point was that a surgeon has only ONE option and no other to achieve their desired position. Pilot's have several.

Second, when I finished CIME I did have the money to do the Direct Track programs but felt that it was not the wisest way to spend money. How long did it take for me to get hired by an airline? 17 months from the time I started FSA as a private pilot with a mere 80 hrs to beeing hired by XJT (with 2X's the required mins). While I'm aware that others situations differ and this leads to different decision making, I feel my example disproves the notion that a direct track program is money well spent and saves months and months of time over flight instructing. It's no coincidence that if you work your tail off good fortune follows.

On another note what does a direct track graduate do if they are furloughed? A possibility all of us must accept no matter who you work for. What then? You might as well have flushed $25g's down the toilet because it's not like another airline is going to come knocking on the door with 400 TT/100 ME with ASA Direct Track Graduate in bold on the resume.

I'm really not trying to stir something up here but just trying to see how people justify this. Perhaps I'm just blind. I'm a huge fan of FSA and would recommend the school to any aspiring pilot without hesitation. The direct track programs are the only part of the school I disagree with.

When pilot jobs go to the highest bidder no one wins, only Key Bank.
 
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Plus both these counties have stricter regulations than here in the states.

[/ QUOTE ]This explanation voids your own argument. It is because the US has the cheapest and easiest certification criteria that this is a bad idea

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...I'd rather fly with a 400hr highly trained pilot than a 1500hr poorly trained pilot any day of the week. It's quality and not quantity that counts in my opinion.

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Wrong again. Neither one should be hired in the first place. Neither one have quality OR quality.
Heck, I've flown with 4000 hour former CRJ captains, that were amazed that it was so much different (ie....harder) flying at NJA.

Would you pick a heart surgeon fresh out of med school, with no residency experience etc. just because he completed some "advanced level course?" Or would you pick the doctor that had the most "hands on" experience? Meaning, the one that had a long list of competent, successful operations, over many years. Would you still prefer the "Novice" just because he got some "special" training, and hasn't killed anyone yet?

Experienced doctors make a lot of money (like airline pilots used to) because there skill set has earned it, and the newbie med grads were restricted. If we were to flood the medical industry with "newbie" med school grads with the same logic that the aviation industry has done, the medical industry would implode too (decreasing pay scales). If the industry wants low time pilots, so be it. BUT, the number of graduates from major schools/academies/companies should be regulated. If we continue to flood the market with pilot candidates, we will continue to lower the lifetime earnings for senior pilots. Or else, 30 years from now, we will see 21 yr old drop outs flying "remote controlled" airliners from their dorm room for "spare change" while looking for a real job. And you will be telling your grandkids about how pilots made tons of money "in the old days."

Those of you using arguments like......"low time pilots haven't killed anyone yet" and "it pays more than instructing" need to have your head examined. Why is it that paying ones dues worked for the last 100 years, but those coming up in the last 5 years think they are above such "work" and need a shortcut?
 
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