American Eagle @ Flight Safety?

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Plus both these counties have stricter regulations than here in the states.


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This explanation voids your own argument. It is because the US has the cheapest and easiest certification criteria that this is a bad idea


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...I'd rather fly with a 400hr highly trained pilot than a 1500hr poorly trained pilot any day of the week. It's quality and not quantity that counts in my opinion.


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Wrong again. Neither one should be hired in the first place. Neither one have quality OR quality.
Heck, I've flown with 4000 hour former CRJ captains, that were amazed that it was so much different (ie....harder) flying at NJA.

Would you pick a heart surgeon fresh out of med school, with no residency experience etc. just because he completed some "advanced level course?" Or would you pick the doctor that had the most "hands on" experience? Meaning, the one that had a long list of competent, successful operations, over many years. Would you still prefer the "Novice" just because he got some "special" training, and hasn't killed anyone yet?

Experienced doctors make a lot of money (like airline pilots used to) because there skill set has earned it, and the newbie med grads were restricted. If we were to flood the medical industry with "newbie" med school grads with the same logic that the aviation industry has done, the medical industry would implode too (decreasing pay scales). If the industry wants low time pilots, so be it. BUT, the number of graduates from major schools/academies/companies should be regulated. If we continue to flood the market with pilot candidates, we will continue to lower the lifetime earnings for senior pilots. Or else, 30 years from now, we will see 21 yr old drop outs flying "remote controlled" airliners from their dorm room for "spare change" while looking for a real job. And you will be telling your grandkids about how pilots made tons of money "in the old days."

Those of you using arguments like......"low time pilots haven't killed anyone yet" and "it pays more than instructing" need to have your head examined. Why is it that paying ones dues worked for the last 100 years, but those coming up in the last 5 years think they are above such "work" and need a shortcut?

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Can I get an *****AMMMENNNNNNN*****

 

[cime_sp]

"Would you pick a heart surgeon fresh out of med school, with no residency experience etc. just because he completed some "advanced level course?" Or would you pick the doctor that had the most "hands on" experience? Meaning, the one that had a long list of competent, successful operations, over many years. Would you still prefer the "Novice" just because he got some "special" training, and hasn't killed anyone yet? "

Make sure it is an apples to apples comparison. If you were going to have a double bypass would you pick the heart surgeon out of his cardiac training or the podiatrist (foot doctor) with 5 years experience treating "hammer toe"....because that's what a 1200 hour CFI is. Yeah he has more flight time but he's never seen what he's about to do in the regional world any more than the foot doctor taking a look at hi first human heart. Did I take a job away from a more "qualified" pilot in that 1200 hour CFI? If my impressions of the pilots I interviewd with is any indication, I was definately the most qualified of he bunch. As far as ASA not hiring high time corporae or charter pilots, this is nothing new. They have never been too willing to put lots of money into somebody who is just out trying to get some 121 experience so that they can make a quick move to the majors.

Heck the majority of the captains I have flown with had to pay for their training at the airline when they were hired and the cost was significant. Other pilots don't get paid during training or the company doesn' cover lodging, etc...Southwest makes you get a $9000 type rating.In what way are these pilots not paying for their training in some way? The industry has changed....like it or not.

 

[NJA_Capt]

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Make sure it is an apples to apples comparison.

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Good advise, mine was apples/apples, yours was apples/grapefruit.

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As far as ASA ...They have never been too willing to put lots of money into somebody who is just out trying to get some 121 experience so that they can make a quick move to the majors.

[/ QUOTE ]You mean like every other regional pilot in the world????

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Heck the majority of the captains I have flown with had to pay for their training at the airline when they were hired and the cost was significant.

[/ QUOTE ] In the voice of your mom...."So if Billy jumps off the roof, are you going to?"

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Southwest makes you get a $9000 type rating.

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I don't agree with that either....and no I haven't applied.

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The industry has changed....like it or not.

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No argument there. The industry HAS changed......and it's not for the better.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

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....For me, the direct track wasn't what I wanted to do, but that doesn't mean that it isn't just fine for someone else. There are several people here right now that started training at FSI more than a year after I did, and they will always have a higher seniority at ASA than I will. (Assuming I even get hired here as a pilot.) How can anyone fault them for making what seems to have shaped up to be a shrewd career move?

G

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In general I agree with what you are saying in regards to the Direct Track program, but keep in mind that some people will use the exact same justification (see bold print above) regarding the Gulfstream type progams as well. "It worked for them, therefore it must be O.K." is not always a valid justification in my book when there are other *big picture* issues involved.

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The difference is that ASA isn't getting any of the money from the Direct Track people. The money is going to training. ASA just knows they will get a highly qualified candidate from the program. That is the only reason they are involved.

It is not enough that it worked for them. As long as it works for them, and they aren't doing something that hurts the industry, I don't mind. These people train very effectively, and ASA knows they will not wash out of their own training. That is valuable to ASA, so they continue the program.

G

 

[CLR4ILS]

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They speak highly of the FSI candidates, and of the program itself. Most of the candidates have a much better time with the systems and sim training than an off the street 1200 hour CFI.

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To quote one of the instructors here at ASA... "I'd rather have a 300 hour pilot with no bad habits yet learned than a 1200 hour pilot who has been scud running for the past 1000 hours. They are trainable."



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Well said... Safety is a great school with a very solid program. The ASA program takes a 300 hour pilot well beyond the proficiency of the average 1200 to 1500 hour CFI. It has been proven and it works.

NOW.....before people start getting crazy on that last comment and start talking about "real world experience as a CFI"......... let me say that I am an Instructor Pilot and I know that the amount of "real world experience" I have seen as a CFI is not enough for me to say "damn, I sure am glad I decided to teach someone something I am already proficient at". The problem is too many CFI's that have no other option will not admit that teaching pre-privates for 1000 hours does not make them any more marketable or "experienced" to fly an RJ. Yes, some CFII experience is good, but only until you are proficient on instruments. After that, it is a waste of "time building"....

Heck, with the average CFI getting picked up from a regional with around 1800-2200 hours right now, the ASA program is still looking really attractive to me. Maybe I'll make another trip to Vero Beach.

HHHmmmm....Maybe

ILS

 

[JEP]

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The ASA program takes a 300 hour pilot well beyond the proficiency of the average 1200 to 1500 hour CFI.

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That's a pretty bold statement. I know that FSA and GIA are two different schools, but you may want to check with GIA about how well there program with Pinnacle is working. Oh wait, Pinnacle is no longer taking the candidates for the right seat.

So experience accounts for little more than time in the logbook?

 

[AV8TOR]

When I orginally asked about the program from the first post. I could not believe that American Eagle is hiring at 400 hours. That's INSANE, how can you be proficient in that? But Speaking with FS, they did bring up a good point about all 3 of their direct track programs. It's a LITTLE harder to train someone how has thousands of hours, when they are "set in their ways", meaning they have been teaching other students how to fly their way. (mind you I am working on my commerical phase, I am not a CFI yet) but if you take a pilot with fairly low hours and train and instill the airline procedures they become more comfortable when they do hit the thousand hour mark.

I am still debating if I am going the Direct route or not, I am trying to save money here and there.

As stated in other post. Some pilots did get a late start, and they don't have time to wait 1 to 2 years to pay their dues as a CFI.

But something must be working right if the airlines keep going to the different schools to get these pilots. Also when you do interview those Senior Pilots that did pay their dues, they are the ones that are asking you the tech questions. From what I have read, I don't think or it doesn't sound like they were grilled about taking the direct route.

 

[MikeD]

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To quote one of the instructors here at ASA... "I'd rather have a 300 hour pilot with no bad habits yet learned than a 1200 hour pilot who has been scud running for the past 1000 hours. They are trainable."

G

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So CFI-boy thinks scud running isn't worthwhile time? Hmmm. I'd say I gained a hell of a lot of experience in a short amount of time, while at night, under a cloud deck, in rain, no moon so NVGs were useless, in mountainous terrain, trying to find a ongoing battle at a set of coordinates, with an intermittent INS and nav-ing by map and what few terrain features I could see, while monitoring and taking care of a wingman, while coordinating with the ground team for the strike I was to put in, while avoiding the cumulo-granite......

...a situation the 300 hour, no bad-habit (hell, so damn new he hasn't had the time to build habits) pilot, who would've long ago flown himself into the terra-firma shortly after takeoff in the aforementioned scenario...

And I feel I'm still trainable. So pass that on to young CFI-boy with his tons of 100 knot Seminole/Duchess right seat training and time, and resultant lack of wisdom, experience, or knowlege beyond the safety and ease of local area ops.

Give me someone with real-world experience any day. If they have the proper atttude for the job that complements their experience, then good on them.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

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To quote one of the instructors here at ASA... "I'd rather have a 300 hour pilot with no bad habits yet learned than a 1200 hour pilot who has been scud running for the past 1000 hours. They are trainable."

G

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So CFI-boy thinks scud running isn't worthwhile time? Hmmm. I'd say I gained a hell of a lot of experience in a short amount of time, while at night, under a cloud deck, in rain, no moon so NVGs were useless, in mountainous terrain, trying to find a ongoing battle at a set of coordinates, with an intermittent INS and nav-ing by map and what few terrain features I could see, while monitoring and taking care of a wingman, while coordinating with the ground team for the strike I was to put in, while avoiding the cumulo-granite......

...a situation the 300 hour, no bad-habit (hell, so damn new he hasn't had the time to build habits) pilot, who would've long ago flown himself into the terra-firma shortly after takeoff in the aforementioned scenario...

And I feel I'm still trainable. So pass that on to young CFI-boy with his tons of 100 knot Seminole/Duchess right seat training and time, and resultant lack of wisdom, experience, or knowlege beyond the safety and ease of local area ops.

Give me someone with real-world experience any day. If they have the proper atttude for the job that complements their experience, then good on them.

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That wasn't a CFI boy... I was quoting a retired ASA captain/instructor in the ASA training department where I'm working as an intern. And his point was exactly what you said, that the 300 hour pilot hasn't had time to develop bad habits.

I don't think he was referring to your situation though Mike. He was talking about those pilots that learn to bend the rules, and acquire a bad attitude towards safety.

G

 

[MikeD]

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To quote one of the instructors here at ASA... "I'd rather have a 300 hour pilot with no bad habits yet learned than a 1200 hour pilot who has been scud running for the past 1000 hours. They are trainable."

G

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So CFI-boy thinks scud running isn't worthwhile time? Hmmm. I'd say I gained a hell of a lot of experience in a short amount of time, while at night, under a cloud deck, in rain, no moon so NVGs were useless, in mountainous terrain, trying to find a ongoing battle at a set of coordinates, with an intermittent INS and nav-ing by map and what few terrain features I could see, while monitoring and taking care of a wingman, while coordinating with the ground team for the strike I was to put in, while avoiding the cumulo-granite......

...a situation the 300 hour, no bad-habit (hell, so damn new he hasn't had the time to build habits) pilot, who would've long ago flown himself into the terra-firma shortly after takeoff in the aforementioned scenario...

And I feel I'm still trainable. So pass that on to young CFI-boy with his tons of 100 knot Seminole/Duchess right seat training and time, and resultant lack of wisdom, experience, or knowlege beyond the safety and ease of local area ops.

Give me someone with real-world experience any day. If they have the proper atttude for the job that complements their experience, then good on them.

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That wasn't a CFI boy... I was quoting a retired ASA captain/instructor in the ASA training department where I'm working as an intern. And his point was exactly what you said, that the 300 hour pilot hasn't had time to develop bad habits.

I don't think he was referring to your situation though Mike. He was talking about those pilots that learn to bend the rules, and acquire a bad attitude towards safety.

G

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LOL. I know. I just like to bust a few butts every now and again.

 

[cime_sp]

The simple fact of the matter is that the ASA program works, and has a long history of doing so. For many years it has produced hundreds of qualified graduates who have no problems throughout training and perform exemplary throughout their classroom, CPT, system, and sim sessions.

Ask ExpressJet, TSA, or Eagle about their pass rates lately. Or call ASA and ask about the pass rates of the FlightSafety program grads versus other pilots. Their track records speak for themselves. Obviously the experience they are getting is pretty valuable.....

 

[NJA_Capt]

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... that the 300 hour pilot hasn't had time to develop bad habits.

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Or good habits...Or any habits for that matter.

 

[NJA_Capt]

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Obviously the experience they are getting is pretty valuable.....

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Not to downplay anyone's accomplishments, but remember....they are minimum standards. And as previously noted, saying that they haven't busted out of training, or bent metal yet, is a pretty poor way to measure success.

MikeD,
If I heard correctly, even the military has a "window" that they expect the most amount of accidents to happen. This window gradually lessens as the pilot gains experience in type.

 

[launchpad]

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hundreds of qualified graduates...

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BULLS***....When I got to flightsafety in 2001, the ASA program was barely off the ground.....in fact, out of the 10 guys that were in the ASA program while I was training, only 6 made it to the airline...then 9/11 happened......No more ASA program till 2003/4....since then, I've seen maybe...maybe......50 people total make it all the way ....... don't listen to what marketing tells you.....they have no clue what happens outside of their office....they know how many people sign up, but no idea how many people actually make it through the program......

 

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ooh ya, I forgot....let's not forget the "watered down" interview the direct track people get vs. anyone off the street......Another sign that the direct track has more people selling out than actually qualified enough to get a full interview.....If the guys that go through the program actually know what they're doing and can do it well, then maybe they should to to ATL for the full interview, and not the "no sim, no hard technical question" interview that they actually get.......then we'll see how many "qualified" candidates actually make it through.....

 

[ananoman]

We can all talk about how wonderful and qualified all the Direct Track Graduates are, but the fact is you would have to be a retard to fail your airline initial training after going through a program like this (And the initial screening pretty much weeds out the retards).

I have known several who went this route and they were all intelligent and highly motivated. But the fact is, they are no better than a 1000-1500 hr CFI.

The Direct Track graduates are not superior pilots who have the judgement of a much more experienced pilot from the outside. They do so well during airline groundschool because they have already done the same training once already on their own dime. If you are already familiar with the checklist and flows, flight profiles, call outs, airplane systems and avionics, you have no excuse if you fail.

I think that this is one of the misconceptions many of the low time people on this board have. You are told that 300 hr airline new hires have to fly to the same ATP standards as a higher time pilot. This leads you to think that if the low time person passes the checkride they are somehow equal. This is not the case. The three hundred hour airline pilot knows what buttons to push and how to fly, but they still have very little experience and judgement. Pilots earn their pay by making decisions. Almost anyone can push buttons.

 

[MikeD]

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MikeD,
If I heard correctly, even the military has a "window" that they expect the most amount of accidents to happen. This window gradually lessens as the pilot gains experience in type.

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You would be correct, sir.

 

[DE727UPS]

"The three hundred hour airline pilot knows what buttons to push and how to fly, but they still have very little experience and judgement. Pilots earn their pay by making decisions. Almost anyone can push buttons."

Very well said. You left out the part about how they have to be babysat the first few months on the line.

 

[AV8TOR]

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Very well said. You left out the part about how they have to be babysat the first few months on the line.

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Isn't that true for all NEW FO's? Just because they have 1000 hours and go thru the training doesn't mean that they can fly left seat. Granted they have a lot more experance than the 300 hour pilot

For some it's a whole new type of flying as well as a new a/c. You could be a 1000 hour CFI flying SE/ME, and have alot of experience but you still have to be "babysat" Because it's a new enviroment,

For the low time pilots, who knows they might be babysat, but I think the same would go for the brand new 1000 hour FO

 

[Snow]

*sigh* Wow, what a discussion this has turned into. Frankly I don't know why I'm trying to defend the direct track program since I decided not to take that route even though I could have afforded it.

Here's another angle, wether your a 300hr CFI or a 300hr RJ FO, your still a 300hr pilot. And if your wanting to move on to a major airline eventually, your still going to need x number of hours. A FO is going to be limited to 1000hrs a year and that's all SIC time. Whereas the CFI could be making over 100hrs a month and is getting PIC time. So my theory is it might actually be quicker to build time as a CFI. Plus if your working for ASA with a now 5yr captain upgrade, it's going to be a while before you start seeing PIC time. You could work maybe 2 years as a CFI, then then maybe another 2 years as a turboprop FO, then then upgrade to captain. So after 4years the CFI is getting PIC turbine time while the ASA FO is still stuck in the right seat. Any thoughts on that?