American Airlines Pilots Feel Painful Cuts

[MQAAord]

Wow. The Evil Empire moniker really does apply.

The Evil Empire name is very fitting. For managment.

For us line pukes who slugged it out in the trenches everyday we had a camaraderie unlike any other. Yeah, it sucked, but we were in it together, and damn if I wouldn't put myself out in ANY way to help ANY of my fellow crewmembers in whatever way they needed. The way the transcons crews worked together to get from JFK to LGA to catch our commuter fights home was like poetry, at Eagle we would do ANYTHING to help each other get to/from work/home commuting. The crew coordinator would drive us from the crew lounge out to the employee lot sometimes... We would do anything for each other, because we knew The Machine in DFW didn't care if we lived or died.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

There's no positive for AMR management either.

Of course there is. They get the most draconian mainline contract in history, and for a very long time.

With the wave of retirements about to occur at every other mainline carrier, how does AMR expect to recruit top quality talent in the years to come?

Recruit? Have you seen their term sheet? The only recruitment to take place for years to come will be at the regional carriers fighting over the RFPs that will be coming in droves from AMR. All because the APA was too short-sighted to understand what the consequences would be of pounding their chests.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So, you're saying the APA should have taken the crap sandwich BK contract AA handed them?

Yep. Sometimes the crap sandwich is more palatable than the alternative.

 

[derg]

Never underestimate pilot's attraction to certain airlines, no matter what the compensation level is.

I still remember when TWA was bankrupt, hiring and probably a few months (it seemed) from chapter 7 and we'd still have raging parties for guys who escaped Skyway for T-Dubb.

I mean their compensation package THEN is probably higher than it is at many "better" carriers NOW but still.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Yep. Sometimes the crap sandwich is more palatable than the alternative.

I think had this happened at your company you would have been against the BK contract to, and even told your company to fight it. Because prior to the vote you were on here saying that no company had ever abrogated a contract in BK.

So even you were (then) of the thought that this could never happen. I don't think the APA (but what do I know) was beating their chest. I think that like you they were saying no airline has ever abrogated a pilot contract in BK. They're bluffing, we can fight this. Unfortunately, they were wrong.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[ClearedToThe]

There's no positive for AMR management either. With the wave of retirements about to occur at every other mainline carrier, how does AMR expect to recruit top quality talent in the years to come?

Why does everyone think this huge hiring wave is going to occur at the majors? Sure there will be hiring but not this floodgate everyone is banking their careers on. What I think you will see (already seeing it actually) is carriers flying the same number of ASMs using fewer planes by up-guaging equipment size. Fewer planes = fewer pilots. Pilot shortage problem fixed.

 

[derg]

Well there's some gamesmanship involved too.

When DL was going to throw out our contract unless we agreed to their terms, we were able to get released for a potential strike.

You throw out our contract, well, we're Audi-5.

Of course there are those of us that believe the whole thing was a charade and those of us that thought the system worked, but that's another discussion entirely.

If you roll over and offer an inch, this management team is going to go for a yard. If you don't accept their yard, well, both sides will find themselves in a "Southern N. American Standoff"

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Trust me, AMR doesn't exactly care about recruiting top talent.

From someone who spent 7 years in the AMR collective, you ARE just a number, you ARE disposable, you do NOT matter. At all. Resistance is futile.

Like motor oil? Change every 3,000 miles.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think had this happened at your company you would have been against the BK contract to, and even told your company to fight it. Because prior to the vote you were on here saying that no company had ever abrogated a contract in BK.

Wrong. There was information in this case that wasn't public at the time, and my pre-ruling opinion would have been much different had I known that information. Primarily, the judge in this case had stated to the parties that he disagreed with the court's ruling in the NWA flight attendant case. That ruling had stated that NWA could not impose anything worse than the rejected TA. In this case, the judge disagreed, however, and stated that AMR would be allowed to impose just about anything if the contract were to be rejected.

To make matters, the APA was dumb enough to put out communications to the membership actually agreeing with this boneheaded interpretation, destroying any chance they might have of fighting it.

So, without having those pieces of information prior to the rejection, I did agree that voting against the TA was a smart move, because I was operating under the bankruptcy court's interpretation in the NWA FA case, not knowing that that interpretation was thrown out the window in this case. I only learned of that upon reading the judge's ruling on the 1113(c) motion. And that changed everything. But the APA had all of that information the whole time. Acting as they did, knowing all of that, was foolhardy.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Wrong. There was information in this case that wasn't public at the time, and my pre-ruling opinion would have been much different had I known that information. Primarily, the judge in this case had stated to the parties that he disagreed with the court's ruling in the NWA flight attendant case. That ruling had stated that NWA could not impose anything worse than the rejected TA. In this case, the judge disagreed, however, and stated that AMR would be allowed to impose just about anything if the contract were to be rejected.

To make matters, the APA was dumb enough to put out communications to the membership actually agreeing with this boneheaded interpretation, destroying any chance they might have of fighting it.

So, without having those pieces of information prior to the rejection, I did agree that voting against the TA was a smart move, because I was operating under the bankruptcy court's interpretation in the NWA FA case, not knowing that that interpretation was thrown out the window in this case. I only learned of that upon reading the judge's ruling on the 1113(c) motion. And that changed everything. But the APA had all of that information the whole time. Acting as they did, knowing all of that, was foolhardy.

Fair enough.

 

[jtrain609]

Wrong. There was information in this case that wasn't public at the time, and my pre-ruling opinion would have been much different had I known that information. Primarily, the judge in this case had stated to the parties that he disagreed with the court's ruling in the NWA flight attendant case. That ruling had stated that NWA could not impose anything worse than the rejected TA. In this case, the judge disagreed, however, and stated that AMR would be allowed to impose just about anything if the contract were to be rejected.

To make matters, the APA was dumb enough to put out communications to the membership actually agreeing with this boneheaded interpretation, destroying any chance they might have of fighting it.

So, without having those pieces of information prior to the rejection, I did agree that voting against the TA was a smart move, because I was operating under the bankruptcy court's interpretation in the NWA FA case, not knowing that that interpretation was thrown out the window in this case. I only learned of that upon reading the judge's ruling on the 1113(c) motion. And that changed everything. But the APA had all of that information the whole time. Acting as they did, knowing all of that, was foolhardy.

Are they (the APA) appealing?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Are they (the APA) appealing?

Yes. Of course, it's highly unlikely to go anywhere, but they are appealing. Their claim on the appeal is that the company didn't demonstrate sufficiently that they couldn't reorganize without so much money from the employees.

 

[flyingmaniac]

I had one American captain jumpseat on my airplane one day and he is telling me that the company has gone from bad to worse. He complained the whole flight about how the company doesn't want customers money or want to fix things. The culture has definitely changed there.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I'll take merger for 50 Alex!

 

[MQAAord]

Like motor oil? Change every 3,000 miles.

Pretty much!

 

[Teller1900]

Well this explains what I heard on LA Center yesterday:

LA: "American ###, would you like a short cut this morning?"

American: "Nahh, we're good."

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Well this explains what I heard on LA Center yesterday:

LA: "American ###, would you like a short cut this morning?"

American: "Nahh, we're good."

Could collecting that type of data be good for management for future court dates? See, they are once again burning extra fuel that could go to shareholders. We need to cut their wages!

 

[derg]

Well, it largely depends on "why".

Sometimes we can't take a short cut because we're already slowed because of gate availability at the destination airport.

Or there may be specific mountainous terrain which has us on a particular route because of aircraft limitations.

Could be anything, but if the pilot can't accept it for either operational reasons or even, well, he just wants to raise a stink, "Nah, we're good" is sufficient.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Could collecting that type of data be good for management for future court dates? See, they are once again burning extra fuel that could go to shareholders. We need to cut their wages!

Not so much for that sort of court case, but it could be great lawsuit fodder for bringing an illegal job action claim against the APA.