jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Nah...I won't take one off of you but if it is a good read then I'll go pick it up. Thanks
ALPA Requests Election to Represent ATI Pilots
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
Nah...I won't take one off of you but if it is a good read then I'll go pick it up. Thanks
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
I'm not going to spam you or sign you up to NGPA or anything!
Nice...PM sent.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I had to take you off ignore to answer this, since Doug's posts seemed to indicate an actual conversation instead of your usual sarcastic drivel. Hopefully you'll listen instead of pulling your usual routine
You give a couple of examples: JetBlue and SWA. Let's take them one at a time.
In the case of JetBlue, your statement is incorrect, because they don't have a collective bargaining agreement. They have individual 5-year contracts that the company changes on a regular basis. The pilot group didn't negotiate anything, because they have no union. Management decided to throw them a few bones, because the company is trying to keep ALPA off of the property. An active ALPA drive is underway at JetBlue, and management is trying desperately to kill it. However, if you look beneath the surface and not just at the new pay rates, you'll see that there's a lot not to like about the "contract" at JetBlue. You need to look at the Scheduling Manual, not just the pay rates. You also need to look at things like retirement. The JetBlue pilots only have a 401k. They have no company pension. All of this adds up.
As for SWA, they don't have a new contract yet. The pilots voted down their first TA a couple of months ago, and now they have a new TA that a lot of pilots are saying is just as bad as the last one. We don't know yet whether this one gets voted in, but if it does, it will be by a very tiny margin. The TA includes very small pay raises, concessions in the area of schedule adjustment, and allowable outsourcing for flying in Canada and Mexico, which is their only real growth opportunity for the near future. In addition, they still have no pension plan.
What about the most recent ALPA contract? Alaska ratified a new TA by a large margin a couple of months ago. It included double-digit pay raises, improvements to their pension (both A-fund and B-fund), and improvements to work rules and scope.
I think I'll take ALPA before non-union or SWAPA any day.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
First off thanks for an honest no bs answer.
Jetblue: Didn't these pilot's turn down ALPA representation just a little bit ago? What is the problem with a company having a working relationship with an organized work force? If they are getting the job done on pilot work rules, wages, etc. , who care if it is ALPA, SWAPA, Teamster's, or no union.
Do you have some solid tangible examples on work rule differences between an ALPA carrier and SWAPA for example? I would like to wrap my head around that more. I just find it hard to believe that it is just so different.
My biggest beef w/ Union's right now in this industry is pay. Obviously, that isn't the only thing to a successful TA but common, if the UAW can get someone with no educational background and get them in a 60k a year job screwing lug nuts on an assembly line, don't we deserve more?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Thanks Pops?
The press release Todd posted only referenced Capital, sorry wasn't fully aware of ABX's presence within the holding company. . .but thanks for the pet name.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
1) In an ideal world nothing. But all it takes is one new group in management and they can take away everything that has been worked out through the good relationship. With a union negotiated contract its illegal for management not to carry through with what they claim they will (unless your union leadership is spineless...but that's a different issue). Without a contract they can give you something one day and take it back the next.
2) Very good point. I think the problem is that there aren't people willing to pay money to screw lug nuts on an assembly line to "gain experience". That's the difference. As long as there's people willing to pay $50k to go work for peanuts at a regional (and there always will be) nothing will change. The only way things will change is if the mainline pilots actually get hard on scope...which as we have seen, will not happen. They seem to just talk a good game
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, they were trying to start an independent union called the JetBlue Pilots Association. ALPA hasn't tried an organizing drive at JetBlue yet.
There are many problems. First, as Emu pointed out, managements can change at the drop of a hat. You can have a great pro-labor CEO one day, and a Lorenzo-like monster the next. By then, it's too late to do anything about it, because your pay and work rules can be changed on a moment's notice.
Also, the JetBlue pilots aren't "organized." Management hand-picks some pilots that they like to sit on some committees that "consult" with management on new wages and work rules. The pilots have no say in who represents them and what the rules end up being.
Lastly, as far as which union it is, as someone who's worked at an IBT carrier, two ALPA carriers, and an independent carrier, I can tell you that there is a big difference in representation. The resources and expertise that ALPA provides are unmatched anywhere else. Representing pilots is a highly specialized field. A union like the IBT can represent truckers, warehouse workers, painters, etc... without much of a problem, because those jobs are not highly specialized and don't require unique kinds of representation. Pilots are different. Our representatives need to deal with the FAA, the DOT, the NTSB, etc... We need complicated work rules like trip and duty rigs, reserve bucket systems, pref bidding systems, etc... These things require a union that specializes in our issues and isn't a "union conglomerate" that just represents anyone that comes along. Bargaining wages and work hours for a Kroger stock boy is pretty much the same thing as bargaining for wages and work rules for a painter. Very different for pilots.
It's incredibly different. Take a look at block hours flown per year. Everyone salivates over SWA's pay rates (which are still far below pre-9/11 legacy pay rates, but I digress), but those people rarely look at how hard SWA pilots work to achieve that compensation. They are working far harder than any other pilots in the industry. These are the cold hard facts: the average SWA pilots flies 768 hours of block time per year, while the average Delta pilot flies only 616 hours per year. That's the equivalent of having to fly an extra two months per year! And guess what? In total compensation, there's basically no difference in what the SWA pilot receives compared to what the DAL pilot receives. Why is this? Because the SWA pilot flies his ass off to get that money, while the DAL pilot takes in far more in soft pay, retirement, and other benefits. In fact, pilots at American, Delta, and Continental actually receive more in total compensation per year than SWA pilots. United is just about even, and USAirways isn't far behind. They just don't work as hard for their money. And this is after they've all taken massive concessions!
You're just looking at regional compensation. Take a look at the majors, where things are on the upswing. The regionals present a real problem, because they have very little control over their revenue stream. Unlike the majors, the regionals' revenue is all derived from flying other companies' routes. If those companies decide that you're too expensive, they just give your contract to someone else. It's a difficult situation, and we're constantly looking for solutions.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
THIS IS A TRUE TRADE UNIONIST FOLKS!!!
He has time to comment on the IBT while heading the Colgan MEC Meeting in Memphis right now!
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
727to7400 said:
ATN Pilot said:
I am a member of the ALPA BOD and although I don't endorse Todd's direct words, I will tell you that ALPA publicly states it's intent to "represent ALL airline pilots".
They've said it for a long time- "You're only as strong as your weakest member". As far as I'm concerned as a profession, we are only as strong as our weakest pilot group. Unless we are all represented by the same entity, how will we ever achieve our goals?
Smittey, maybe that would be a good question to ask of the TWA guys...or the Midwest Express guys out there. Or the Atlas guys who Prater lied to in January 2007 when he told them he'd get the merger done and then sandbagged them. I mean c'mon...their MEC met with the Exec board at every meeting at the request of the Exec Board...got nowhere. Your members and every one elses got nicked for over one million dollars in legal fees to Dan Katz that should have stayed in house because Polar didn't want ALPA attorneys processing thier greivances.
Now, you have ATI...the Airline Division has said they will not sign a contract that allows ATSG to whipsaw ATI against Capitol Cargo (ALPA) or ABX (Airline Division). ATI wants it because Joe Hete has promised to move ABX 767's and flying to ATI since they will fly them for less money.
This is the same Airline Division that just brought together a historic level of support for airline pilots at Amerijet. Something never seen in the history of our industry. And got them a contract with no concessions. They have now said they won't sign a whipsawing contract.
But Prater has said he will.
You're right, we are only as strong as the weakest link. SWAPA, APA, USAPA, IPA, CAPA and others, including a lot of ALPA pilots and LEC's stood with them.
Prater was silent. His promised "delegation" never showed or called.
Take a look and you'll see that those other unions do very well. There's no reason that unions can't work together for common, defined goals. To do so, you have to have everyone on the same page.
There's only one person keeping that from happening. And now he's made it clear that he's willing to sign a whipsaw contract just because he can. A contract that could set us all back years.
To paraphrase Bill Engvall: "You looking for the weak link? Here's your sign."
Yep...this is how they play the game. Did Seggy mention the multiple terms as MEC Chairman, National EVP, an industry leading contract for the Astar pilots and the founding of the Global Cargo Pilots Alliance of all the carriers who fly for DHL, or the historic work with European and Asian trade unions for those pilots?
No...because you can't point out the good if you're handlers want you to trash a man. And when you don't have all the facts, all you can run on is what you're told to say by your handlers in Herndon. Honesty and integrity have no place under John Prater and his tenure.
I've seen the guys records, his DD-214 and the three Stars he was awarded and know his old C.O. ...Forget any integrity on Seggy's part...he hasn't got the balls to do what that man did in combat in Viet Nam for one day, let alone multiple tours.
No...because you can't point out the good if you're handlers want you to trash a man. And when you don't have all the facts, all you can run on is what you're told to say by your handlers in Herndon. Honesty and integrity have no place under John Prater and his tenure.
I've seen the guys records, his DD-214 and the three Stars he was awarded and know his old C.O. ...Forget any integrity on Seggy's part...he hasn't got the balls to do what that man did in combat in Viet Nam for one day, let alone multiple tours.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Sure, he's a member of the ATN MEC.....HOWEVER, you should be advised the actual MEC Chairman and Vice-Chair are NOT members of the ALPA BOD. The MEC BOD members are the status reps.
The MEC Chair/ Vice-Chair may be the ones in the spotlight....However, they merely function as the voice of the MEC status reps.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
I think one of the biggest things is that each ALPA carrier is run by its own guys. If you have crappy guys doing the job your "ALPA Experience" is going to be crappy. If you have a strong group of guys then your experience is going to be different. Many people seem to think that its all run by one big group, its not, its the pilot group.
So you have the big problem at regionals that in the past movement was existant. So no one thought about the future, and those doing the negotiating or those on the MEC would be gone as soon as an offer came to leave their regional airline, I mean who wouldnt? So you get people who are only half way caring about how it goes. Most probably assumed that by the time a contract was negotiated, voted in, and put in place, they would be doing sitting right seat on international flights between the US and Europe and the last thing on their mind were the 8 legs a day they used to do with their former regional.
UAW workers essentially went to their job on the line, and assumed that from age 20 to age 90 they would be at the same plant, doing the same type of work. That plays a big part.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Or you get what we had with our former MEC chair: a lifer that would sell out the junior pilots he supposedly represented to improve his own quality of life. I thought we were passed all that, but looks like some of the stuff that was inked while he was around survived in this latest TA....
IMO, the signing "bonus" formula is gonna be the nail in the coffin. Some of the FOs I've talked to have gone ballistic when they hear how little they'll be getting as a bonus and the numbers tossed around for the senior guys. Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't come to blows in cockpits yet.
So he's not a status rep? How many councils does ATN have?
Every ALPA carrier I was a member of, the Status Reps comprised the MEC and the MEC elected the Chairman and Vice. And at each BOD, they were seated.
Jhugz...despite the drivel you've read from others, the IBT Locals are run by the pilots themselves...not the Airline Division or the "dreaded" Mr. Hoffa. (Somehow we also got into how he doesn't drive a car, but it was forgotten that despite ALPA National Officers getting free cars paid for with union dues, Prater has a car and driver at his disposal...and uses them. Just a little fact check there)
Underlying this is money. ALPA's cash flow has forced them to lay off or put on part time their most senior contract staff and economic analysts. The majority of the MCF (Major Contingency Fund) funds are pledged out. They will be requird to soon begin a mandatory assessment above the current dues structure to replenish the fund. By this time next year, expect to see a dues cut to make the masses happy, but each airline will have to pay more (meaning mandatory assessments to their membership) for services by ALPA. This will affect the smaller carriers the most as the crewmembers with the smallest paychecks will proportionally pay more for ALPA services than legacies.
As to airlines and their contracts. They are negotiated by professional negotiators with years of airline experience. The final contract is approved by the Director of the Airline Division. It's his shot to call. Just like each ALPA contract must be approved by the President.
The reason is simple. While the pilots may bargain, the union, both ALPA and IBT...are the legally recognized bargaining agents. That's why contracts say, "As Represented By The ______" (ALPA or IBT)
Like ALPA, each IBT unit has a negotiating committee made up of pilots from the airline with specific knowledge of the airline and it's issues. They have with them airline economic experts, a professional negotiator and legal team all of whom are experts in avaition law and the RLA. The Airline Divisions senior lawyer is a former 23 year contract negotiator and contract administrator. Their lead negotiator is a former UAL MEC Chairman. Others have many years of pilot contract negotiating experience. Leaving ALPA does not make you a "turncoat" or "second class citizen"...except if ALPA tells you to call them that publicly. It's very interesting to note that each person who is attacked by them is a person who stood in opposition to the current leadership because they saw them as incapable of running the organization. A quick, or slow walk through the Herndon office will reveal a staff of WONDERFUL people who care about pilots...that have been beaten down in a horrible way. ALPA leadership can say what they want; and will...but the fact remains that it is a union that fired their own unionized employees in violation of their contract and had to offer them their jobs back with back pay and benefits...and IMPOSED a contract on them. To keep the other bargaining unit from conducting informational picketing during Air Safety Week; they agreed to come back to the bargaining table if the employees agreed not to picket. The employees agreed, and ALPA no showed the planned sessions.
Regarding JetBlue, there was an attempt to organize ALPA. It failed. Just as three organizing drives failed last year, despite millions being spent. Senior staff advised against them because the ground work hadn't been done. Prater wanted it done anyway, for the cash flow. Millions were spent and all three failed.
As we speak, the CEO of ABX is funding a decertification drive at ATI. Their pilot leadership wants to decert because they have been promised the jets and jobs of ABX pilots if they sign a management friendly contract. (ATI, ABX and Capitol Cargo are part of the ATSG group). ABX pilots are negotiating for their jobs, recall of furloughees and to stop the whipsawing of the pilot groups. ATI wants to take the jobs and do them on the cheap.
The Airline Division Director has told ATI he will not sign a contract that will allow management to whipsaw the pilot groups and shift the jets and jobs between the three to drive down pay and working conditions. ALPA President John Prater has told ATI that if they come to ALPA, he'll sign that contract. And put every airline pilot group back into a defensive mode because management will come after everyone with the same threat. Just as we saw in the 80's when American started the "B Scale."
Integrity and protecting pilot's best interests has taken a back seat to cash flow. They can hurl all the platitudes about unity they want, but when the President of ALPA is willing to sign a substandard, whipsaw contract over a personal vendetta...that's bad for everyone in our profession and will be for years to come.
So in a nutshell, that's the difference. A union that will say anything to get your money, or one that will stand up for your rights and best interests.
Flying The Line, Vol I & II are required reading for anyone in our industry in my opinion. You need to see what it took to get where we are. The flip side is that you will also see a thread of arrogance that began and continues today. Failure to adapt, post Deregulation, has been a tragedy. Right now, there is no clear vision how to proceed and recover. While there is a place for smaller carriers at the back table...if you bring your dues money...the legacy carriers control the structure and will not allow that to change.
Witness the upcoming election next year. You will have a DAL MEC Chairman run against Prater. Both opposed to regionals in ALPA despite what they are saying now for votes. There are a couple of very talented former MEC chairmen withing the ranks of the regionals who have the years of experience and the ability to run the organization very well.
They won't stand a chance because CAL and DAL have the votes to block them.
It saddens me to say that ALPA has become a parody for what happens when it all goes wrong. But it has. And the big guys will continue to do whatever they need to in order to protect their "turf," no matter how many regional guys get screwed. In the end, it will lead to their demise when the financial mess exceeds the cash in the till.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Seggy or Cruise, you want to take this one? I'm tired of arguing with someone that's either misinformed or lying.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Scumbag. It's of interest to note that making false statements about military decorations is actually illegal. I do believe it's a Federal offense.
