ALPA Requests Election to Represent ATI Pilots

Seggy or Cruise, you want to take this one? I'm tired of arguing with someone that's either misinformed or lying.

People which are grinding axes so hard it becomes obsessive should simply be pitied and, for the most part, ignored.

ALPA is not perfect just as our own nation's democratic system isn't perfect <stand-by for internet nerd explanation that our system of government is really a republic>

A union is only as good as the people who make up its membership. Those who sit on their butts and wait for big brother to swoop in and save them are going to be disappointed. Many of the pilots at TWA and MidWest understand this process, but both of these unfortunate airlines have more than a few malcontents who need someone other than themselves to blame, so they rant about how ALPA, and only ALPA, screwed them.
 
People which are grinding axes so hard it becomes obsessive should simply be pitied and, for the most part, ignored.

ALPA is not perfect just as our own nation's democratic system isn't perfect <stand-by for internet nerd explanation that our system of government is really a republic>

A union is only as good as the people who make up its membership. Those who sit on their butts and wait for big brother to swoop in and save them are going to be disappointed. Many of the pilots at TWA and MidWest understand this process, but both of these unfortunate airlines have more than a few malcontents who need someone other than themselves to blame, so they rant about how ALPA, and only ALPA, screwed them.

Couldn't agree with you more, D.W. The organization and its staff are a wonderfully talented group that live, eat and breathe to help pilots. They are the best. Left to their devices, they can and would do a wonderful job. Where the problem has evolved over the years has been the elected officials. Some, like Bencke, J.J. O'Donnell and others, truly understood how the organization needed to be forward thinking in a global perspective. Others, including Bencke in his later years, forgot the focus and instead became more focused on personal political agendas like protecting their own carriers.

This was the post deregulation mistake. Pre 1978, each carrier was essentially a large jet regional, that grew from the old mail route days. Each was protected by the CAB and when you went on strike, no one "jumped" into your neighborhood. We can see how that has changed. Then add in the regionals, and the legacies have no way to "protect" their turf.

Had the legacies embraced the regionals in the 80's, figured out how to do reasonable flow up agreements, and worked out ways to handle furloughs and downgrades, a system would have evolved that would have done a couple of things. It would have created the "farm system" and brand loyalty for a new pilot coming into the industry and then given that new "regional pilot" the future and security he wanted, while giving the legacy carrier a stable work force. More importantly, it would have created the solidarity between the pilot groups that would have given the regional pilots the support of "big brother" at the bargaining table and both the support when it came time to stop moving the planes.

What came instead and continues today are turf wars, consuming our own. AMR, DAL, UAL...everyone out there with a regional partner wants now to ensure that any future reductions in the legacy are protected by allowing the legacy pilots to flow back to the regional jets. DAL is already in the process of planning for this. Others will do so as well because we as a group have never figured out how to play together.

There are some that have not figured out how to stop grinding axes. I've been fortunate to have been involved in this industry for almost 30 years and have seen the ebbs and flows. I've also had the privilege of working with some tremendous people throughout and we've accomplished some great things.

I've also learned, as so many have, that life viewed through rose tinted glasses may be grand, but it's not always the case. Just as everyone does not like one flavor of ice cream, one particular union is not always the best fit for everyone. Anyone saying that is the case; or belittleing others for not being a part of their union, serves no purpose. Just like signing a whipsaw contract, it hurts everyone for years to come.

The Amerijet strike proved that. Working men and women who never would have supported pilots came out in droves to stand with them. Pilots who are members of every pilot union either showed up or lent support. AFL-CIO stood shoulder to shoulder with the IBT, SWAPA, CAPA, USAPA, IPA and ALPA pilots.

That's what trade unionism is and how we should work together. Not calling others "truck drivers," "turncoats," "raiders," and the like.

We need to foster pilots like Jhugz and others who are coming up and welcome them to our ranks. We also have a responsibility to be honest with them and admit our mistakes and work together to find honest solutions.
 
Seggy or Cruise, you want to take this one? I'm tired of arguing with someone that's either misinformed or lying.

I've been advised (as well as Seggy) to allow the thread to go the way of the dodo. So, I think we're out....sorry ATN.

Although, I will say I do agree NO organization is w/out faults, ALPA included. Let there be no false pretenses on that subject. The question becomes, what are we, as airline pilots, doing to better our profession....and our UNION??? I know many of us on this board are doing everything we can to continually improve our collective futures. And with that, I will bow out.
 
I've been advised (as well as Seggy) to allow the thread to go the way of the dodo. So, I think we're out....sorry ATN.

.

That's weird...

I only say that because this is seemingly one thread where finally the workings of the unions, good or bad, could possibly be fully understood by anyone who feels one way or the other about them; or more importantly, anyone who is on the fence.

Every other union-related thread around here has, for one reason or another, turned into a poop-slinging contest. This one almost was, but seems to have smoothed out. It's unfortunate because there are alot of people who probably have alot of questions about what's what with different unions, as well as unions in general, and have been looking how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand if there's truly-sensitive info people may not want to have on the table; but if there's good information or gouge available, getting it out there is the best way to educate people. I don't care if it's IBT or ALPA, rhetoric needs to be put aside and useful information made available, if either has any hope of working smarter rather than harder towards the goals they wish to achieve.
 
That's weird...

I only say that because this is seemingly one thread where finally the workings of the unions, good or bad, could possibly be fully understood by anyone who feels one way or the other about them; or more importantly, anyone who is on the fence.

Every other union-related thread around here has, for one reason or another, turned into a poop-slinging contest. This one almost was, but seems to have smoothed out. It's unfortunate because there are alot of people who probably have alot of questions about what's what with different unions, as well as unions in general, and have been looking how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand if there's truly-sensitive info people may not want to have on the table; but if there's good information or gouge available, getting it out there is the best way to educate people. I don't care if it's IBT or ALPA, rhetoric needs to be put aside and useful information made available, if either has any hope of working smarter rather than harder towards the goals they wish to achieve.

:yeah that:

Lotta info here...trying to figure it all out. One way or another it is actually very impressive to all on this thread how civil it has been.
 
That's weird...

I only say that because this is seemingly one thread where finally the workings of the unions, good or bad, could possibly be fully understood by anyone who feels one way or the other about them; or more importantly, anyone who is on the fence.

Every other union-related thread around here has, for one reason or another, turned into a poop-slinging contest. This one almost was, but seems to have smoothed out. It's unfortunate because there are alot of people who probably have alot of questions about what's what with different unions, as well as unions in general, and have been looking how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand if there's truly-sensitive info people may not want to have on the table; but if there's good information or gouge available, getting it out there is the best way to educate people. I don't care if it's IBT or ALPA, rhetoric needs to be put aside and useful information made available, if either has any hope of working smarter rather than harder towards the goals they wish to achieve.

Mike:

Very good points. Other than an airline specific negotiating strategy that, if made public during negotiations could harm the process, there's not much that cannot not be discussed in open forums.

Airline labor/management relations have evolved over the years just like in other industries. Some underlying premises remain, however if we hope to continue to be viable in the future, strategies must be reviewed and revised. What worked in the days of phone and mimeographs won't work in today's environment and today's ideas will be outdated in a few more years.

What continues to aggravate and frustrate me is that in colleges around this country, aviation courses are still being taught by professors with no knowledge of the industry, who rail about the evils of organized labor. Students are taught that unions are evil by people who haven't got a clue about life in the real world of a cockpit.

ALPA for years has had an Educational Program. For years, it was run by a guy named Frank Mayne (DAL). You couldn't have had a better ambassador for the program. He was a prince.

The problem is that the program could never reach out to each school because of the sheer numbers. I don't know what the status of the program is today, but it's something that every ALPA pilot should contribute time and or money to. And every pilot who's a union member elsewhere should take the time to reach out and pay it forward as well, sowing the seeds for the future. That young person who doesn't understand how we got where we are and why we have to keep fighting.

Kinda like the parent who thinks milk and meat come from the grocery store. If they don't understand that it came from a farm and how much work it took to get to the store, they have no appreciation of the work involved...they just think it costs too much. (Cheap tickets...overpaid pilots...get the trend?)

Mike, maybe we should start a different thread so the discussion can continue. I hope Jhugz and others who don't understand the labor side of the equation will continue to ask questions. It's a good way to explain the process and spread the word.
 
What continues to aggravate and frustrate me is that in colleges around this country, aviation courses are still being taught by professors with no knowledge of the industry

Ain't that the truth? Aviation isn't the only area were academicians are deficient or lacking in expertise. It lends credence to Mencken's quote "Those who can -- do. Those who can't -- teach."
 
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