ALPA National Officers and Employees Salaries

[Orange Anchor]

Corporations don't have to do this, Unions do. Once again, thanks to the Bush administration.

Right.. the D's, every working man's friend, didn't do anything while being in the majority. Sorry this had to lapse into a Bush bash but it does add another dimension to the debate. In case you have not noticed, the Ds, now in control, have done NOTHING to stop freezing/terminating pensions not only in the airline industry but also others. The odd thing that escapes most pilots is that many make too much to be democrats and too little to be republicans. As such, neither party favors the pilots or the 'union'

This is going to piss you off but, that was such a minor matter at the time that after the vote was over I promptly forgot most of the discussion.

Not pissed. Not even really angry. Moved through the SARA and have moved onto other things but in the process and during my tenure on a few committees and seeing some things that were just not right, excuse me if I don't accept the assertion that these guys are just altruists. But I do find it interesting that you remember the vote but nothing else. i guess that happens.

I had many more important things going on at the time. Like, trying to figure out how not to declare bancrupcy or foreclose on my house, contract negotiations and defending stupid pilots locking themselves out of the cockpit and then landing single pilot (happened).

Sorry about the financial strain. That seems to come with the territory these days. I also took some major hits with the pension termination and while you are talking about taxes, when the gov looked at the pensions, they declared the money the company set aside as 'non-qualified' and when it was disbursed, the Feds took 28% off the top. The company made out. The banks made out. The gov made out... no help from the Ds on trying to get that pension money qualified and thus not subject to the tax rip.

But to continue.. I spent more than a few hours talking to friends who had things fall apart when they took huge cuts. Lost houses, families broke up, marriages failed. Not pretty by any means. As for stupid pilot things, we had our share from guys taking off without sufficient fuel to letting an FA land the airplane. ??? ( or at least sit in the seat for landing).

Hope that things have improved for you.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Right.. the D's, every working man's friend, didn't do anything while being in the majority.

Kind of hard when you don't hold the White House or even a filibuster-proof majority.

In case you have not noticed, the Ds, now in control, have done NOTHING to stop freezing/terminating pensions not only in the airline industry but also others.

Actually, the Dems have been working very hard to tackle this issue. ALPA has been working with House and Senate Democrats for the last year on a bill that would solve the pension problem. Legislation is also in the works to fix the 1113(c) provisions that allow a judge to abrogate a labor agreement in bankruptcy, but we won't be able to get any of this through until Obama is elected. Just laying the ground work right now.

The odd thing that escapes most pilots is that many make too much to be democrats and too little to be republicans. As such, neither party favors the pilots or the 'union'

Absurd. Only a tiny handful of pilots make enough money to be affected by the lapsing of the Bush tax cuts, and even then only a small fraction of their total income will peak into the upper bracket. Besides, which hurts you more: a 5% tax hike, or a 45% wage cut? Choose wisely.

 

[JoelT]

Sorry about the financial strain. That seems to come with the territory these days. I also took some major hits with the pension termination and while you are talking about taxes, when the gov looked at the pensions, they declared the money the company set aside as 'non-qualified' and when it was disbursed, the Feds took 28% off the top. The company made out. The banks made out. The gov made out... no help from the Ds on trying to get that pension money qualified and thus not subject to the tax rip.

Seeing as you are in ATL and talk about the non-qualified stuff I guess we both fly planes with Widgets on them. My dad is in the same boat as you (retired May 2004) and lost a significant portion of his annuity. However, he puts full blame on the Republicans.

But to continue.. I spent more than a few hours talking to friends who had things fall apart when they took huge cuts. Lost houses, families broke up, marriages failed. Not pretty by any means. As for stupid pilot things, we had our share from guys taking off without sufficient fuel to letting an FA land the airplane. ??? ( or at least sit in the seat for landing).

Hope that things have improved for you.

As long as I don't get furloughed.

 

[Velocipede]

"MEC Officer" is the Chairman, Vice-Chair, and Sec/Tres. These guys are full time flight pay loss.

Not true at all airlines. Ours is significantly different.

I wonder if ALPA has furloughed anyone, since the amount of people they represent are less in number one would assume they need less support staff.

There have been many early retirements/furloughs at Herndon.

"For this reason when a pilot leaves the flight deck a FA has to go up there in case the other pilot becomes incapacitated they can let the other pilot back in."

I always wondered why they did that....

Freight is great.

The best thing about flying freighters is no "door guard" nonsense.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Oh, that's nothing, this'll really piss him off :

As I mentioned to Capt C, not pissed at all so once again you are wrong. Sorry about that (including smiley face which could be construed as some concerted effort to piss me off). With a batting average like that, you could play for the Braves... but that aside, you vote the way you see it but don't discount everyone else because they differ in opinion with you. Contrary to what you seem t0 think, others, including me, have not been just standing in some corn field uninformed. I also did some committee work so I am not a novitiate in respect to ALPA and some inner workings.

Many I knew were exemplary fellows.. and some, a very few, were just dirtbags who were mostly watching out for number 1.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Seeing as you are in ATL and talk about the non-qualified stuff I guess we both fly planes with Widgets on them.

No. Another airline that had a base in ATL when I got hired (78) and then they closed the base and opened CLT. I became a 'migrant worker' and commuted. Like everyone else, a few mergers and an increasing hassle factor convinced me it was time to retire. The recent merger and ugly pushing and shoving that has ensued has only convinced me I made the right decision. And I continue to see guys around my seniority quit and find jobs elsewhere. One took a VP Ops position with another airline. One took a job with a fractional. What makes me shake my head is these guys were top notch, high quality work-horses respected by the line guys and with a record of constant achievement. You don't lose talent like that and not suffer consequences.

My dad is in the same boat as you (retired May 2004) and lost a significant portion of his annuity. However, he puts full blame on the Republicans.

But at least he walked out the door with half. We didn't even get THAT and the annuity is about 45% of the deferred compensation.

As long as I don't get furloughed.

I hope it doesn't happen. best of luck...

 

[JoelT]

No. Another airline that had a base in ATL when I got hired (78) and then they closed the base and opened CLT.

Ah, you might know a good friend of mine's dad with a last name of Ellot. He did the commute also for a few years before he got fed up in the early nineties. Also, I flew with a few x-Piedmont ATL guys at airline number one of four, Pace Airlines (Piedmont-Hawthorne).

 

[WacoFan]

How does ALPA measure the performance of the National Officers? Are there any metrics that are used to track these peoples success or failure? Lot's of pilots bitch about how horrible ALPA is, and at least that many defend ALPA. What do you, as pilots, use to gauge the effectiveness of the leadership team? In business we can track any variation of numbers and market data...what does ALPA use, or more importantly what do the members use to hold ALPA accountable for success? Contrary to what PCL says, the wages and benefits to ALPA officers is not exactly poverty - they are high incomes. Anyone approaching that income NEEDS to have a PITA job and work that hard - that is simply right. ALPA is a business - there must be some way that the management is held accountable.

Over the last year or so ALPA has lost US Airways, failed to be appointed at Colgan and has a strong Teamsters challenge this year, failed to be appointed at some other carriers (can't remember who now), allowed age 65 to pass (which is bad for some members/good for others - this may be a wash), and based upon some of the regional pilots here - they have completely ignored those people.

What have ALPA's successes been over the same time-frame? How is ALPA replacing the lost US Airways revenue? How is ALPA expanding their market share?

Just curious - I am generally a fan of ALPA - I think they have done good things.

 

[kellwolf]

Kinda tough for the Ds to do much, in the Senate. Most things require a 60% vote, and they have the majority by 1. That's not 60% if things fall along party lines.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

ALPA is a business

I reject this entire premise. ALPA is not a business. ALPA is a union that exists for the sole purposes of defending and advancing the profession and protecting the membership. Unlike a business, there is no profit motive. Some pilots may like to take the cynical stance and believe that ALPA is really just another business, but as a rep that spent considerable amounts of time working at the national level, I can tell you that no one in Herndon thinks of the union as a business. It is a service and a brotherhood, even if the cynical don't want to believe that.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

What the hell happened to you, merit? You leave the industry and suddenly you're anti-ALPA?

So one question about the organization and he's anti alpa? Damn dude....simma

 

[WacoFan]

I reject this entire premise. ALPA is not a business. ALPA is a union that exists for the sole purposes of defending and advancing the profession and protecting the membership. Unlike a business, there is no profit motive. Some pilots may like to take the cynical stance and believe that ALPA is really just another business, but as a rep that spent considerable amounts of time working at the national level, I can tell you that no one in Herndon thinks of the union as a business. It is a service and a brotherhood, even if the cynical don't want to believe that.

Let me clarify to explain my "ALPA is a business" statement.

ALPA is a non-profit entity set up to advance the profession and protect membership. Got it.

The Midwest Ear Institute is a non-profit entity set up to perform cochlear implants, advance technology and research in hearing and ear related disorders, and provide advanced neuro-otology care regardless of a patients ability to pay.

BOTH ARE BUSINESSES. A business is not a cynical undertaking, and calling something a business does not a cynic make. Non-profit is simply a tax designation - nothing more. ALPA generates income, does not pay tax, and must use this income toward their stated purpose. The Ear Institute generates income and donations, doesn't pay tax, and uses the "profits" to fund programs, capital equipment, etc. The underlying business must produce something of value regardless of their tax-filing status. I understand your not wanting to call ALPA a business, but I firmly believe it (and all non-profits) should be run like one. Not all business is bad - and the officers of ALPA certainly make money like leaders of a business, the income generated is significant like a business...so, like a business - how are you measuring success and measuring the leadership charged with delivering it? That is all I am asking.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, I understand what you're saying, but we need to be careful not to measure a union's success based on its revenue generation as you would with a for-profit business. The success of a union must be measures on somewhat more intangible items. What bills has Congress passed to benefit our profession, how many members' jobs have been saved, how many grievances have been settled/won, etc... You can't put a dollar figure on most of this, so quantifying it isn't as easy as looking at a corporation's balance sheet.

 

[WacoFan]

Well, I understand what you're saying, but we need to be careful not to measure a union's success based on its revenue generation as you would with a for-profit business. The success of a union must be measures on somewhat more intangible items. What bills has Congress passed to benefit our profession, how many members' jobs have been saved, how many grievances have been settled/won, etc... You can't put a dollar figure on most of this, so quantifying it isn't as easy as looking at a corporation's balance sheet.

I understand about the revenue generation being difficult to quantify as a success for ALPA except in the broadest sense in that revenue generation, as a percentage of members wages, will reflect trends in both pilot income and success at recruiting more members. These are two important measurements to take when viewing ALPA, but like all business there are MANY metrics to be measured to see if the organizations goals are being met. So, looking at revenue is an important measurement, but certainly not the only measurement and perhaps not the most important to the mission except for the fact that it enables the mission. At the ear institute, gross patient charges are measured as an indicator of growth - each gain in income provides a very general indicator that we are consistently helping more people. We measure this growth on top-line patient charges, not bottom line because that would include insurance allowances and charity care and not give a good picture of growth.

The intangible CAN be measured, and should not only be measured but also reported to members. How many pilots won grievances - easy to update and measure. How many medicals have been reinstated by ALPA medical - easy to update and measure. New membership drives and success - easy to measure and project new revenue that will help ALL ALPA members. Then, the truly hard things to quantify can be explained such as the lobbying, safety work, etc. ALPA could measure these things and report to members (maybe they already do) and I would imagine that IBT, APA, SWAPA, and others would have a difficult time matching the success.

If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Math is our friend

Iam sure that ALPA IS measuring these things - I am just curious as to how well informed the membership is about the measurement and what the membership can do if key performance metrics for the organization erode.

 

[surreal1221]

Kinda tough for the Ds to do much, in the Senate. Most things require a 60% vote, and they have the majority by 1. That's not 60% if things fall along party lines.

First, thanks for noticing the amazingly high compensation figures for some of our executives.

Second, don't use logic. People must have a scapegoat to blame all their problems on, even when they don't understand our political system in this country.

 

[JoelT]

But I do find it interesting that you remember the vote but nothing else. i guess that happens.

I've been dwelling on this statement all day long. Are you insinuating something brother?

This something I can't let go. I voted on soooooo many things when I was a Rep and that was a long time ago (six years, three airlines back) that I can hardly be expected to remember the details of what I considered a very minor vote. The change was negligible. It was so minor to me that it ranks up there with votes on whether or not to take a five or ten minute break.

The most important votes I was a part of concerned providing healthcare coverage for our furloughed pilots, whether to submit a TA for ratification, and if a strike vote was needed yet. Also, the many jobs that I saved were much more important to me.

I can't remember what exactly my W-2 was two years ago, how can I expect to remember what some other dudes is from six years ago? Also, I have worked under no less than six contracts with four airlines. I sure as ##### can't remember what my own pay rate was back when I was a third year RJ FO. I can ball park it, but that's it.

 

[MusketeerMan]

So one question about the organization and he's anti alpa? Damn dude....simma

Does this surprise you? You're written off by him if you dare talk down to ALPA or question them about anything...though said person is not a dues paying member of ALPA. (By choice) Go figure.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Ah, you might know a good friend of mine's dad with a last name of Ellot. He did the commute also for a few years before he got fed up in the early nineties. Also, I flew with a few x-Piedmont ATL guys at airline number one of four, Pace Airlines (Piedmont-Hawthorne).

THAD?? I got stories about Thad... got to fly once with him in his Maule and flew with him on the line. Very interesting fellow to fly with...

And if you were with Pace, you know "Good good good", right? Stories there also.

PI was a good place to be. It wasn't just work.. it was a good place to be. Then came what all three pilot groups will concede was a train wreck. It steadily went downhill after that as far how the company treated the employees but I met some of the best guys. And our training dept was a great place to work.

Our training boss when I was there put it bluntly when he said, "You are a servant to the line pilot. IF there is an unsat on a ride, the first place we come is to you, the instructor. You WILL do whatever is needed to send that pilot back to the line a better pilot."

We didn't get to the point where guys liked going to training but we did achieve a level that guys/gals coming in knew they were going to learn, we are not going to shovel them bull##### and call it candy, and they were going to get a fair evaluation. Guys who liked to play 'stump the dummy' or hammer guys in the sim got a quick attitude adjustment.

 

[Orange Anchor]

I've been dwelling on this statement all day long. Are you insinuating something brother? [/qhote]

Nothing insinuated. You say you don't remember the amount but do remember thinking it was not out of line. And I think it odd that during a discussion of compensation, someone would have asked, "how much is this guy going to walk out the door with?" To me there is a paradox. It sort of reminds me of the old Senator Dirksen famous for his remarks about government spending, "A few billion hear. A few billion there and before long we are talking serious money!"

This something I can't let go.

I am not here to impugn your integrity or to suggest improper actions on your part. I can't put my hands (or internet hands) on the info but I too remember Dwayne receiving a total compensation package (car, pay, expense account, housing, etc.) being up near $500k at a time when guys were not only seeing pensions lost, pay rates being cut by 30% or more (and an even greater pay cut when someone lost his/her left seat and went back to the right seat).

You saw it one way. I saw it another. It ain't like this is Baghdad and we need to go on a jihad. Enjoy the day. I am. (long bike ride up at the Bud brewery with a bunch of retired Deltoids.)

 

[JoelT]

THAD?? I got stories about Thad... got to fly once with him in his Maule and flew with him on the line. Very interesting fellow to fly with...

And if you were with Pace, you know "Good good good", right? Stories there also.

Yup, Thad Jr. (actually the III) was my flight instructor. I got to do quite a bit of flying with Sr. in the Maule as well. What I remember most about him was telling us that "down in Moultrie real Maule pilots land on the ramp, I land on the ramp." Lord, I loved that plane.

I remember "Good", how about "Boss Hog"?

Sorry about the other thing but, I remember the ballpark number a couple of hundred thousand less. I just don't remember specifics. I know for sure that DW made less than the highest paid airline pilot in the country at the time. That honor went to a Delta MD-11 FO. He was the king of creative bidding.