ALPA: It's Time for Regionals To Raise Pay

BajtheJino said:
ALPA: negotiating your wages away today, and tomorrow. Guaranteed.
Click to expand...

Flightinfo called. They want their tired, nonsensical rhetoric back.

Vector said:
I am actually one of those that will work with the unions. I enjoy negotiations and all that good stuff. For those who have experienced it, what is the most valuable skill to have in your tool bag?
Click to expand...

Patience. Lots and lots of patience. You also need to learn to see it from the other side of the table's perspective. While there are managers who are just plain scumbags, the truth is that most of them are just people doing a job, and they want to find a way to a deal as much as you do. The people who can try to find win/win solutions are the best negotiators. The people who view negotiations as a winner-takes-all proposition are the people who destine their constituents to years upon years of monotonous negotiations.

mshunter said:
How about its not as good as previous contracts they both had. But hey, they got shiny new jets, so what's it matter.
Click to expand...

A contract that provides advancement opportunities is not a contract that is "not as good." It's a trade. It's up to the voters to decide whether the trade is fair or not. I think they made the right decision.
 
Seggy said:
Please share with us what is wrong with their contracts.
Click to expand...

1. You have to be joking. $21/hr starting pay?

2. My comment was pointed at the title of the post, and the ALPA article, not the banter afterwards. I'm not bitter at Mesa because I was at RAH myself and went through the same crap. All I'm saying, is that as long as guys line up and fill classes (supposedly there is a waiting list to get a class date) they will get and keep out-sourced flying and the pay will not improve much. Again, as a former RAH'er I'm not bitter, the only difference is RAH can't fill classes, Mesa can. Supply vs. demand.
 
BobDDuck said:
You're full of crap. My signature is in the last page of one of those contracts and I can unequivocally tell you that the language that is in there now is 100% better than what used to be in there.

But be sure to let the rhetoric of people that have absolutely zero perspective or knowledge form your opinion for you and stuff.
Click to expand...

Did you not take concessions to get new airplanes on property?
 
mshunter said:
It's one of the lowest, and doesn't really get better second year. But that's not the point. It's a concession.
Click to expand...

Contracts, even big wins, are full of concessions. You trade x for y, with the ultimate goal being to come up with a total package that is better than what you had. If I can trade $0.50 on a pay rate for a trip rig that will return more than that loss, then it's a win, but you would still call the $0.50 "a concession."

Stop listening to crew lounge lawyers. They're polluting your brain.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Contracts, even big wins, are full of concessions. You trade x for y, with the ultimate goal being to come up with a total package that is better than what you had. If I can trade $0.50 on a pay rate for a trip rig that will return more than that loss, then it's a win, but you would still call the $0.50 "a concession."

Stop listening to crew lounge lawyers. They're polluting your brain.
Click to expand...

My brain was polluted long before I met my first crew lounge lawyer.

But from everything I've been able to gather, what they gained was far less than what they have up, at both shops.
 
chrisreedrules said:
Well when left with the option of signing or saying "bye bye" to their jobs, can you blame them? I don't understand all the vitriol directed towards PSA anymore. Of the original pilot group of less than 500 pilots, about 60% voted for concessions. And of the 1,000+ pilots currently I property today, only about 150 or so of those original voters even remain. PSA twice voted "no" to a concessionary contract. And twice those airplanes went to Mesa. The third time, they were threatened with a shutdown. A small airline like PSA could of been easily shutdown by AAG, and you better believe they would of. I have friends at Envoy who don't blame anyone for coming to PSA. And I know guys from Envoy who have come to PSA to further their careers. One of them upgraded in 12 months. None of them are bitter or blame PSA for what happened at Envoy. They blame Doug and AAG. Just like you should too. If PSA, Piedmont, and Envoy would of all "held the line" and voted no. Then all 3 would of been downsized and their flying given to a non wholly-owned regional. Blaming anyone but AAG for what happened is simply foolish. And you are playing into AAG's divisive tactics.
Click to expand...
PSA is the easy target for Envoy pilots, but the truth is Envoy's fate was determined both when AMR filed bankruptcy, and when Parker came marching into town. Envoy is a victim of time, poor management (both company and union leadership), and scope that prevented a fleet renewal for years. It's sad but it is what it is.

With that being said, the lack of unity between regional pilots is sad. PSA improved their situation, but there is no denying it also hurt bigger airlines. Right or wrong, at this point it really doesn't matter. However, all PSA pilots, whether they were on property or not when the vote happened, can't act bewildered when pilots who were negatively impacted by their decisions show disdain towards them.
 
mshunter said:
My brain was polluted long before I met my first crew lounge lawyer.

But from everything I've been able to gather, what they gained was far less than what they have up, at both shops.
Click to expand...

You should do some more gathering from people who actually know what they're talking about instead of the angry captains that you're flying with.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You should do some more gathering from people who actually know what they're talking about instead of the angry captains that you're flying with.
Click to expand...

We've lost people to PSA, price from when I had a crash pad in ATL, and now consider them friends who I have kept in contact with. I have asked them about the contract after they were hired. I was unimpressed.

As for Mesa, I'll give you that one. Just what I've heard.
 
mshunter said:
We've lost people to PSA, price from when I had a crash pad in ATL, and now consider them friends who I have kept in contact with. I have asked them about the contract after they were hired. I was unimpressed.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand who the people are who know what they're talking about. The average pilot doesn't have a clue what's in his own contract, let alone how it compares as a package to his peers throughout the industry.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I should go into airline management. I'd offer $200/hr, but slide in some language that you only get paid based on a duty rig that pays 0.1 hours for every hour on duty. Idiots would be lining up to vote yes because of the pay rate.
Click to expand...
People can almost never see past something at it's most basic level.
Despite incredibly high increases in education or literacy among people in the last 100 years, you can still make a killing off snake oil.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't think you understand who the people are who know what they're talking about. The average pilot doesn't have a clue what's in his own contract, let alone how it compares as a package to his peers throughout the industry.
Click to expand...
This is very, very, very true.

Paragraph two is that the contract is a two way street: you have to hold up your end of the bargain too...which is why it's called a contract!
 
CFIscare said:
PSA is the easy target for Envoy pilots, but the truth is Envoy's fate was determined both when AMR filed bankruptcy, and when Parker came marching into town. Envoy is a victim of time, poor management (both company and union leadership), and scope that prevented a fleet renewal for years. It's sad but it is what it is.

With that being said, the lack of unity between regional pilots is sad. PSA improved their situation, but there is no denying it also hurt bigger airlines. Right or wrong, at this point it really doesn't matter. However, all PSA pilots, whether they were on property or not when the vote happened, can't act bewildered when pilots who were negatively impacted by their decisions show disdain towards them.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I do with the second. I think these pilots' disdain is misplaced. I will leave it at that. One day, PSA will be in the same shoes, and one day another airline will likely come and undercut us in some way. I won't hold it against them, it's the nature of the beast. It's happened for years, and will continue to happen for years. Don't be mad at pilots, be mad at management.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I do with the second. I think these pilots' disdain is misplaced. I will leave it at that. One day, PSA will be in the same shoes, and one day another underline will likely come and undercut us in some way. I won't hold it against them, it's the nature of the beast. It's happened for years, and will continue to happen for years. Don't be mad at pilots, be mad at management.
Click to expand...
You might not hold it agaisnt them, but I guarantee you most of your pilot group will.

I agree with you in that the disdain for PSA is misplaced for the most part. PSA pilots made a business decision, and who am I to judge them? Of course, naturally I am disappointed because it hurt my pilot group, which affected a lot of people even beyond my airline.

Concerning your point of being mad at management, trust me, Envoy pilots are, more so than they are at PSA pilots. PSA very rarely comes up, whereas management comes up all the time. However, just because it was management's decision, doesn't mean pilots can't be held accountable. Management is expected to work against a pilot group. Fellow pilots aren't. You can be bad at both.
 
CFIscare said:
PSA is the easy target for Envoy pilots, but the truth is Envoy's fate was determined both when AMR filed bankruptcy, and when Parker came marching into town. Envoy is a victim of time, poor management (both company and union leadership), and scope that prevented a fleet renewal for years. It's sad but it is what it is.

With that being said, the lack of unity between regional pilots is sad. PSA improved their situation, but there is no denying it also hurt bigger airlines. Right or wrong, at this point it really doesn't matter. However, all PSA pilots, whether they were on property or not when the vote happened, can't act bewildered when pilots who were negatively impacted by their decisions show disdain towards them.
Click to expand...

Their fate was sealed when they decided to call management's bluff.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
How is that significantly different than other regional starting pay?
Click to expand...

Significantly? Well it depends your reference for money (2 bucks extra an hour is probably a lot to someone making that much), but Mesa is on the lower end of the scale when you compare similar Regionals like Mesa, RAH, PSA, Envoy, TSA, Compass, XJ, SKW, Horizon, etc.

But again, I wasn't attacking them or ALPA. I was just pointing out that they're on the lower end of the pay and work rules spectrum and can staff better than anyone else. While ALPA's goals in this situation are admirable they just don't have any leverage in this situation, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for any kind of improvements.

Especially when the CEO of Mesa purportedly said, (paraphrasing), "if I can fill new hire classes, then my starting paying is too much!"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top