Allegiant Airlines

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

A union is a democracy. The majority decides the action to take within the confines of the Constitution & Bylaws of that union. The pilots at those carriers voted by overwhelming majorities to strike. Just as I can't choose to not pay taxes because I don't support Bush's wars, you can't choose to ignore the decisions of the majority while you're a member of a labor union.

Not really. Unions are like politics and politicians. The majority decide on which person(s) to elect to a certain position and then in turn they elect their MEC leader and national ALPA leaders. And like politicians, they can become corrupt, vote or pass for something you would never have wanted, and require the need to be recalled here and there. And the tyranny decisions of the majority isn't always the right thing. Pretty sure in many states gay marriage is outlawed by majority-passed propositions but judges are misinterpreting the constitution and allowing it anyway.

It's all a crapshoot - just like politics.

 

[av8tr1]

Pretty much only the stated givens without the protections. So you'd get the published payscale, per diem, expenses, schedules, vacation bidding, etc. But in terms of the legal protections, services, anything associated directly with ALPA/Herndon, you're out of luck.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question. If I join the union what are the benefits? I looked over the ALPA website and it isn't very clear about the benefits.

Looks like I get some sort of legal representation, medical representation and some sort of lobbying representation. The rest isn't very clear as to the benefits. Frankly the whole thing isn't very clear. I am always cautious when marketing material is a little vague on the benefits of purchase.

Does the union pay my salary while we are on strike? Do I get health insurance while on strike? What else does the union do for me?

What I do know is I get legal, medical and lobbying membership from AOPA. And I haven't been very impressed with them so every year it's a struggle for me to renew my membership. I almost didn't last year until they offered to grant me the old pricing structure for the year.

 

[av8tr1]

Lose, and nobody is talking about vandalism.

LOL, yes sorry! You are correct "Lose" is the proper spelling. Working from my Ipad here.

The vandalism and other questionable legal activities comes from numerous stories I've found on the Internet about prior strikes and those that didn't support the strike.

 

[Avalon781ML]

Wait let make sure I got this straight. Regardless of if I am a member of the union, I still have to pay a fee? Or are you saying you have to be a member of the union to be a pilot with the company?

What do these fees usually cost? Are we talking 10 bucks a month or 120 a year type thing? Or is it a percentage of my income? Or something else?

Yes, you have to pay a fee regardless of whether or not you are a union member. If the union was on property prior to employment the rules guiding this would have been covered during a newhire presentation. The amount is based upon the company, union, and pilot group that you join. The kicker about all of this, since your line of questioning compels me to believe you don't care for unions, is that the maintenance fee is basically the same as a union members dues yet you are not eligible to vote "NO" on any union business. Do you really think so little of organized labor that you would forego the ability to vote against changes that may bring upon a strike?

 

[jtrain609]

LOL, yes sorry! You are correct "Lose" is the proper spelling. Working from my Ipad here.

The vandalism and other questionable legal activities comes from numerous stories I've found on the Internet about prior strikes and those that didn't support the strike.

What was your practice area before becoming a pilot?

 

[av8tr1]

Yes, you have to pay a fee regardless of whether or not you are a union member. If the union was on property prior to employment the rules guiding this would have been covered during a newhire presentation. The amount is based upon the company, union, and pilot group that you join. The kicker about all of this, since your line of questioning compels me to believe you don't care for unions, is that the maintenance fee is basically the same as a union members dues yet you are not eligible to vote "NO" on any union business. Do you really think so little of organized labor that you would forego the ability to vote against changes that may bring upon a strike?

You're making a leap of logic. I never said I was against organized labor. I am actually for representation for employees in management. I worked in IT for years and watched some horrible bosses make horrible decisions that destroyed lives. I worked at a number of Internet companies during the dot bomb years and watch so many of them piss away millions on fooseball tables and hammer shlamer chairs. I saw people working so many hours that they had to sleep under their desks (true story, been there done that a couple of time). However I knew that I could leave and go to a different job if I needed to. I didn't need a union to hold the company hostage to get better working conditions. I just left for greener pastures.

I have some limited understanding of the seniority system at airlines. But from my limited understanding it seems fairly communist in origin. But again I know very little about the system. So how is the seniority system better than being able to find a better job elsewhere?

What is different about aviation that employees can't just up and leave if they don't like the decisions management makes? Why can't one go to a new company and get a raise or an upgrade?

 

[BobDDuck]

For the oldies and us generation X pilots, sure. But I bet you todays babies/toddlers will be raised 100% in the electronic iPad era where things like strikes will be seen as silly and immature. Scabs will be forgiven.

And yes I think it's silly once someone is dead to consider them a scab and put "dead" on that list. Get. Over. It. The new generation certainly will, if they even bother to look up from the iPad that is.

Well, then I'd guess we ("oldies and us gen x guys") better make damn certain that we educate the new guys showing up about how we got to where we are and what it took to protect that. I know I'm doing my part to ensure that education is there. Are you?

 

[jtrain609]

You're making a leap of logic. I never said I was against organized labor. I am actually for representation for employees in management. I worked in IT for years and watched some horrible bosses make horrible decisions that destroyed lives. I worked at a number of Internet companies during the dot bomb years and watch so many of them piss away millions on fooseball tables and hammer shlamer chairs. I saw people working so many hours that they had to sleep under their desks (true story, been there done that a couple of time). However I knew that I could leave and go to a different job if I needed to. I didn't need a union to hold the company hostage to get better working conditions. I just left for greener pastures.

I have some limited understanding of the seniority system at airlines. But from my limited understanding it seems fairly communist in origin. But again I know very little about the system. So how is the seniority system better than being able to find a better job elsewhere?

What is different about aviation that employees can't just up and leave if they don't like the decisions management makes? Why can't one go to a new company and get a raise or an upgrade?

So you weren't a lawyer?

 

[av8tr1]

So you weren't a lawyer?

Why do you keep asking me that?

 

[BobDDuck]

Why do you keep asking me that?

Because you implied, although didn't specifically say, that you were.

 

[av8tr1]

Where did I imply that I was a lawyer?

 

[MikeD]

So how is the seniority system better than being able to find a better job elsewhere?

What is different about aviation that employees can't just up and leave if they don't like the decisions management makes? Why can't one go to a new company and get a raise or an upgrade?

Airline-wise, every new company you go to, you start at the bottom of seniority, hence at the bottom of pay too. Regardless of experience.

 

[av8tr1]

Airline-wise, every new company you go to, you start at the bottom of seniority, hence at the bottom of pay too. Regardless of experience.

Wow! That sucks! That seems really short sighted. If I am a 777 captain with 10K hours and my company goes out of business. The next company I join is going to put me in a FO job with 20K a year pay? Why would I take that job?

How did the seniority program start?

I probably have this concept wrong so humor me here. But I have heard of something called a street captain. Whats the story behind this? Or is it one of those flight school myths?

 

[BobDDuck]

Where did I imply that I was a lawyer?

However calling up my legal education much of what I read is illegal activity.

 

[MikeD]

Wow! That sucks! That seems really short sighted. If I am a 777 captain with 10K hours and my company goes out of business. The next company I join is going to put me in a FO job with 20K a year pay? Why would I take that job?

The rules of the game, just how it works. No national seniority list.

How did the seniority program start?

Very long time ago.

I probably have this concept wrong so humor me here. But I have heard of something called a street captain. Whats the story behind this? Or is it one of those flight school myths?

Few and far between, rare program, with some regionals. Hasn't been done in a long time, as I remember.

 

[av8tr1]

Taking legal courses in college does not imply that one is a lawyer. Legal studies are required in many areas of study, from legal degrees to engineering. Business management to the medical profession, and yes even aviation. I had a number of classes during my aviation training that focused on aviation law.

But it just so happens I did study law in pursuit of a legal degree. Though I am not a lawyer. I chose to change my careers before taking the bar and chose a more respectable career with higher earning potential of a Helicopter pilot.

 

[jtrain609]

Taking legal courses in college does not imply that one is a lawyer. Legal studies are required in many areas of study, from legal degrees to engineering. Business management to the medical profession, and yes even aviation. I had a number of classes during my aviation training that focused on aviation law.

But it just so happens I did study law in pursuit of a legal degree. Though I am not a lawyer. I chose to change my careers before taking the bar and chose a more respectable career with higher earning potential of a Helicopter pilot.

Well that's all you had to say.

Did you finish the JD or bail after 1L?

 

[av8tr1]

Well that's all you had to say.

Did you finish the JD or bail after 1L?

What does it matter? It has nothing to do with the discussion? I could be a 13 year old kid in my moms basement. I've asked some questions that you seem to be uncomfortable with so you are deflecting rather than having an honest discord about the issue. Just answer the questions or ignore me.

Funny enough, what you are doing is incidentally a common litigation tactic. You're having trouble winning your case so you attack the witnesses credibility. Have fun with that. I think I hear my mom calling for dinner.

 

[Avalon781ML]

So my choice is lose my job by not flying the flight? Or lose my job and never get another again and can expect to be stalked, harassed, threatened, have my hard earned possessions vandalized and probably forced to change careers and lose all the investment in my aviation career?
All because I didn't join the group?

What does a company pilot who isn't part of the union do in these cases?

Ok, but lets say I am a standard run of the mill line pilot and I chose not to join the union, so I don't get to vote or be part of the democracy. What do I do?

Wait let make sure I got this straight. Regardless of if I am a member of the union, I still have to pay a fee? Or are you saying you have to be a member of the union to be a pilot with the company?

Oh it was. Agency shops themselves are illegal. But if we use different wording in the employment contract/agreement "fair share fee" gets the union the same result.
Correct me if I am wrong here but if I want a job at a union represented company, regardless of representation I have to join the union. Sorry, I missed typed. Regardless of representation I have to pay a fee to the union.

You're making a leap of logic. I never said I was against organized labor. I am actually for representation for employees in management. I worked in IT for years and watched some horrible bosses make horrible decisions that destroyed lives. I worked at a number of Internet companies during the dot bomb years and watch so many of them piss away millions on fooseball tables and hammer shlamer chairs. I saw people working so many hours that they had to sleep under their desks (true story, been there done that a couple of time). However I knew that I could leave and go to a different job if I needed to. I didn't need a union to hold the company hostage to get better working conditions. I just left for greener pastures.

I have some limited understanding of the seniority system at airlines. But from my limited understanding it seems fairly communist in origin. But again I know very little about the system. So how is the seniority system better than being able to find a better job elsewhere?

What is different about aviation that employees can't just up and leave if they don't like the decisions management makes? Why can't one go to a new company and get a raise or an upgrade?

What leap of logic? Your posting history paints a picture that you don't agree with organized labor groups, you want to know what to expect if/when you don't join a pilot group union, and although I didn't quote the post you think AOPA does a resembling job of what ALPA offers. Agency shops illegal? No. You "don't need a union to hold the company hostage to get better working conditions." I think that sentence alone makes my "leap of logic" pretty factual.

Taking legal courses in college does not imply that one is a lawyer. Legal studies are required in many areas of study, from legal degrees to engineering. Business management to the medical profession, and yes even aviation. I had a number of classes during my aviation training that focused on aviation law.

But it just so happens I did study law in pursuit of a legal degree. Though I am not a lawyer. I chose to change my careers before taking the bar and chose a more respectable career with higher earning potential of a Helicopter pilot.

Ok. So you worked in IT but didn't like it so you studied to be a lawyer but didn't take the bar for an unknown reason resulting with you choosing to fly helicopters because it was (more?) lucrative.... which you think is cut throat so you are making the move over to fixed wing flying? Am I getting all of this right?

 

[jtrain609]

What does it matter? It has nothing to do with the discussion? I could be a 13 year old kid in my moms basement. I've asked some questions that you seem to be uncomfortable with so you are deflecting rather than having an honest discord about the issue. Just answer the questions or ignore me.

Funny enough, what you are doing is incidentally a common litigation tactic. You're having trouble winning your case so you attack the witnesses credibility. Have fun with that. I think I hear my mom calling for dinner.

Well, if you want the truth, I was pestering you because I figured you were talking out of your butt about having a legal education.

I was right about that.

Now I'm just curious.

And I'm not uncomfortable with any questions. I'm uncomfortable with your inability to read the responses that have been given simply because they don't line up with your world view.

Every question you've asked has been answered professionally and quickly. Honestly, I'm tending to agree with you being a 13 year old in your Mom's basement. Let me know how the meatloaf turns out tonight.