Alaska landing incident SNA

SurferLucas said:
I have, one time, made N at SEA off 16R…and it was in an -800. It felt that aggressive to me, that I was just like “nope, not doing that again”

We have a lot of people that are “Flaps 30/AB’s 3” because that’s what they do in the sim.

I honestly wish we could do AB’s at our discretion, like we could on the E175. (Only ABs for certain runway lengths).

Sadly, lowest common denominator will ensure that won’t be happening.
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AB is suppose to be our discretion. Sim world sucks. I was told AB 1 and 2 are useless, if you’re gonna use AB, use AB 3.

That’s an idiotic statement.

Even AB 1 will start applying brake pressure before you have a chance to get the TRs up and deployed. It will initially apply pressure to the wheels, and then let go as TRs come out.

FO tip - full reverse thrust initially gives the equivalent deceleration of AB 2.5 (to 3!)

That’s what the CA HUD shows for decel.


I never used to say anything to FOs about their AB use. Now, I find my self constantly stopping them from AB 3. Now that I pay more attention, I’ve noticed so many guys are primed “oh I always use AB 3 for Seattle.”

LOLz. What?!
 
So I wonder….when a lot of the older captains were hired I understand that ANC was junior. And I heard a CP say that being junior flying up there “you really learned to fly the Boeing, putting it right down on the markers every time in all weather” that sounds like the kind of thing that could build a culture where getting down and stopped even when it’s completely unnecessary is a bit of a badge of honor. Not trying to criticize as a newbie or outsider but just sort of wondering.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
AB is suppose to be our discretion. Sim world sucks. I was told AB 1 and 2 are useless, if you’re gonna use AB, use AB 3.

That’s an idiotic statement.

Even AB 1 will start applying brake pressure before you have a chance to get the TRs up and deployed. It will initially apply pressure to the wheels, and then let go as TRs come out.

FO tip - full reverse thrust initially gives the equivalent deceleration of AB 2.5 (to 3!)

That’s what the CA HUD shows for decel.


I never used to say anything to FOs about their AB use. Now, I find my self constantly stopping them from AB 3. Now that I pay more attention, I’ve noticed so many guys are primed “oh I always use AB 3 for Seattle.”

LOLz. What?!
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AB Max, or go home. :)
 
MikeD said:
AB Max, or go home. :)
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I used it once in Wrangell, AK. Braking action was reported 3 and the guys working the runway cleanup asked us to slow on the approach. Also it was the freighter.

It works! Really, really well.


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Roger Roger said:
So I wonder….when a lot of the older captains were hired I understand that ANC was junior. And I heard a CP say that being junior flying up there “you really learned to fly the Boeing, putting it right down on the markers every time in all weather” that sounds like the kind of thing that could build a culture where getting down and stopped even when it’s completely unnecessary is a bit of a badge of honor. Not trying to criticize as a newbie or outsider but just sort of wondering.
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Taking off unpressurized and flying single pilot too. It doesn’t mean we all have to be that stupid and thump on our chests about how great we are at the same time.


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Roger Roger said:
So I wonder….when a lot of the older captains were hired I understand that ANC was junior. And I heard a CP say that being junior flying up there “you really learned to fly the Boeing, putting it right down on the markers every time in all weather” that sounds like the kind of thing that could build a culture where getting down and stopped even when it’s completely unnecessary is a bit of a badge of honor. Not trying to criticize as a newbie or outsider but just sort of wondering.
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There is a lot going on at AS. There is a SE AK culture and way of flying, and I think there is a weird schoolhouse way of flying. Sometimes there seems like a general lack of logic when it comes to landing and rollout. I don't think any of that had to do with SNA so I will just say that right off the bat.

I tend to brief long landings. I don't like jumping on the brakes in anything, I land my Extra 300 and rollout 3,000 feet, I do it in most GA airplanes and I brief it that way in the 737, just as I did in the Bus. Now with short runways, that logic gets thrown out in the window in the name of safety and staying on the runway. In places like SFO I might brief getting on the brakes after crossing the 1's so I can make Echo but I hate throwing passengers into their straps and getting on the brakes super hard. I think it is a really poor way to fly unless absolutely necessary.

One issue that I think is causing this, is the fact that when we send for landing performance, and we look at landing distance, that number is predicated on MAX auto brake or max application of brakes. We tend to take that out of the compartmentalized sim enviornment, with instructors and even in some cases, check airmen passing this subconscious idea that because it says that, we need to operate like that. You send for landing numbers in LAX just to cover your butt which is fine, that is above and beyond anything we need to do and is not required per our FOM. But don't then slam on the brakes as you touch down on 24R, you shouldn't even need brakes honestly...

I digress, all of this has nothing to do with SNA lol.
 
Inverted said:
There is a lot going on at AS. There is a SE AK culture and way of flying, and I think there is a weird schoolhouse way of flying. Sometimes there seems like a general lack of logic when it comes to landing and rollout. I don't think any of that had to do with SNA so I will just say that right off the bat.

I tend to brief long landings. I don't like jumping on the brakes in anything, I land my Extra 300 and rollout 3,000 feet, I do it in most GA airplanes and I brief it that way in the 737, just as I did in the Bus. Now with short runways, that logic gets thrown out in the window in the name of safety and staying on the runway. In places like SFO I might brief getting on the brakes after crossing the 1's so I can make Echo but I hate throwing passengers into their straps and getting on the brakes super hard. I think it is a really poor way to fly unless absolutely necessary.

One issue that I think is causing this, is the fact that when we send for landing performance, and we look at landing distance, that number is predicated on MAX auto brake or max application of brakes. We tend to take that out of the compartmentalized sim enviornment, with instructors and even in some cases, check airmen passing this subconscious idea that because it says that, we need to operate like that. You send for landing numbers in LAX just to cover your butt which is fine, that is above and beyond anything we need to do and is not required per our FOM. But don't then slam on the brakes as you touch down on 24R, you shouldn't even need brakes honestly...

I digress, all of this has nothing to do with SNA lol.
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We all know don’t need numbers for dry and no wind / HW min 7000 ft and max 15 kr tailwind min 8000 ft.


But that’s also predicated on altitude and temperature. Greater than 35 deg C and/or greater than 4,000 elevation are the cutoff.

My reading is that you have to pull numbers regardless for going into places like DEN, GDL, etc, or anytime hotter than 35 deg C.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
We all know don’t need numbers for dry and no wind / HW min 7000 ft and max 15 kr tailwind min 8000 ft.


But that’s also predicated on altitude and temperature. Greater than 35 deg C and/or greater than 4,000 elevation are the cutoff.

My reading is that you have to pull numbers regardless for going into places like DEN, GDL, etc, or anytime hotter than 35 deg C.
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You are right, but people will pull numbers for LAX on a gorgeous socal day, dry runway and think that because they pulled numbers, they need to use autobrake or max braking. Very weird training disconnect...
 
inigo88 said:
I wouldn’t rule out a metallurgy issue as a result of manufacturing or overhaul as well.

I was looking into the aft trunnion pin because I was curious about the material, and it’s evidently 4340M alloy steel heat treated to 275-300ksi (pretty dang strong!), with chrome plating.

More interesting was the fact that this same failure mode has happened to a couple of 737s in India relatively recently - a 737-900 in 2016 and a 737-800 in 2015:
www.b737.org.uk

VT-JGD 737-900 MLG Collapse

A 737-900, VT-JGD, 33740/1350, operated by Jet Airways suffered a right main landing gear collapse shortly after landing at Mumbai on 3 March 2016. The incident occured after vacating the runway following a normal landing. There were no injuries but the aircraft sustained substantial damage. The...
www.b737.org.uk www.b737.org.uk


View attachment 73698
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Not pinging on any manufacturer in particular, but the last 5-10 years, I’ve noticed that metallurgy in general has gotten really sloppy.

Heat treated parts that aren’t, really weird corrosion modes on new parts, spalling where there should never be any, just a whole new level of WTFery.

We’ve either forgotten how to make stuff, or they just accept the crap that comes in a box with no QC.
 
///AMG said:
Nice job skipper.....all things considered. Kinda wild that such a massive gear failure would be so imperceptible that the FO just did the after landing flow. Also, if you guys think 1.7 Nz is a lot, it isn't *on the mains at least*. Probably not a "good" landing in PHX on a nice day, but running off the end of the runway is a much worse landing as one fishes for the right ROD. On that note, I'll have the stick in my lap at 7G tomorrow before some of you are even awake. Suck it :)
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Are you a 129 Growler IP? There’s already talk of putting g-limits on Growlers. Have fun while G’s are free.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I smell a fleetwide AD coming on...
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ASB first to describe and instruct, AD to follow shortly thereafter. I suppose because of the size of the fleet and scheduling of flights it could turn into a big deal. I've never worked on a 737 but I've removed and replaced landing gear on large cabin private jets plenty of times, it's not really difficult you just need to realize the scale and weight of the parts and act accordingly.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Don’t get me started on the Airbus. Low = not enough juice. Medium = dang, easy girl, not that much! Why didn’t they just make a setting for in-between?
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They do, its on the top part of the rudder pedals, I think the 737 has it too, or is it like a lot of other designs from the early 20th century that has a T bar in the middle and you just step on the bar that sticks out on your side when you want brakes?

🤓
 
You step on the brakes manually at 140 kts, you’re gonna get the brake shuddering.



Dry runway more than 7000 ft, I don’t even touch the brakes until below 100 kts. Works every time.
 
Ease on the brake pedals while slowly stowing the speed brake between 90-80 knots.

Hella smooth.

It’s also totally allowed at my shop to reach up and switch the auto-brakes to 2, 1 or OFF from 3. I don’t know why they aren’t trained in something that is procedural for the MAX.

Of course when I asked about using the AB like that at the schoolhouse the instructor said it was dangerous. Even though it’s authorized in the FH.


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