AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

[derg]

A little back to reality here. Delta bought Northwest (with Air France's money), but if you think for a hot minute that "I'm sorry 42% of the combined pilot group, you were acquired" would be sufficient to morph into a larger, more ass-kickier airline is insane.

From my experience, not what I just read on the aviation internet written by anyone from Flight Sim basement dwellers to people involved first-hand with the decisions being made, it's got to be equitable to the point where most feel they got a somewhat "OK" deal.

Remember, there are still lawsuits about the AA-TWA seniority integration, Pan Am acquisition by DL and UA, America West versus US Airways, etc.

If there is a large scale hose-job and there is a core of merged employees that feel they got a royal screwing, it will only benefit their competitors, costs will skyrocket and all of the efficiencies of a employee group "pulling on the same side of the rope" in this big tug-o-war will be lost.

 

[jtrain609]

A little back to reality here. Delta bought Northwest (with Air France's money), but if you think for a hot minute that "I'm sorry 42% of the combined pilot group, you were acquired" would be sufficient to morph into a larger, more ass-kickier airline is insane.

From my experience, not what I just read on the aviation internet written by anyone from Flight Sim basement dwellers to people involved first-hand with the decisions being made, it's got to be equitable to the point where most feel they got a somewhat "OK" deal.

Remember, there are still lawsuits about the AA-TWA seniority integration, Pan Am acquisition by DL and UA, America West versus US Airways, etc.

If there is a large scale hose-job and there is a core of merged employees that feel they got a royal screwing, it will only benefit their competitors, costs will skyrocket and all of the efficiencies of a employee group "pulling on the same side of the rope" in this big tug-o-war will be lost.

ALPA actually lost that one with the AA-TWA thing.

The damages from that one could huge. Like bankrupting ALPA huge.

 

[derg]

Oh, I know.

 

[pullup]

A little back to reality here. Delta bought Northwest (with Air France's money), but if you think for a hot minute that "I'm sorry 42% of the combined pilot group, you were acquired" would be sufficient to morph into a larger, more ass-kickier airline is insane.

From my experience, not what I just read on the aviation internet written by anyone from Flight Sim basement dwellers to people involved first-hand with the decisions being made, it's got to be equitable to the point where most feel they got a somewhat "OK" deal.

Was the original deal fair? They were getting screwed a bit with senority but got a huge raise, would you consider that fair? Me, personally, I would. We all know senority is the name of the game, but you had to know from the start that they would never climb up the ladder from that first offer.

If there is a large scale hose-job and there is a core of merged employees that feel they got a royal screwing, it will only benefit their competitors, costs will skyrocket and all of the efficiencies of a employee group "pulling on the same side of the rope" in this big tug-o-war will be lost.

Agreed. ATN has 1742 pilots, SW has 5887, therefore ATN would make up 23% of the new group. If half felt like they got royally screwed over then you would have 11.5% of your group pissed off. Now that it has gone this far I'm sure the number has climbed by now and the only outs are to give in to ATN demands (and anger the 77%) or keep them seperate/fire them.

What would be a good reoslution to this? Anyone have any real world solutions besides "give them everything!!"?

 

[derg]

How many mergers have you personally been through? And what baseline are you personally using to determine what is fair and equitable?

See, here's the trick with the internet. If Delta said, "Hey! We're going to make 767 captain pay $100/hour and FO pay $80/hr or we're parking the jets", lots of people that don't have a first-hand association with the issue may say "Oh hell, jump on that deal, fool!"

I don't pretend to know the inner working of the psychology of either side, which is why I caution everyone to reserve judgement and just hope for the best for both sides.

Having a quarter of the combined group pissed off and, well, when you piss off pilots they tend to find methods of recouping some of that income and that ultimately will cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars and none of us operate in a vacuum.

Trust me, I've got friends on both sides of the fence, but they also recognize the true resolution is somewhere in the middle.

 

[ChasenSFO]

So if I'm understanding this right, Southwest is saying "Either take option A and go the Morris Air route with a full merger, or shoot it down, and we'll operate you separately for a while like ATA and TranStar/Muse Air and pull the plug once we have everything we want". Right?

 

[Bumblebee]

sounds like they can just get the routes and let attrition handle some of the pilot reduction while keeping the ATA group at their current rates. Then just let it die on the vine as they SWA takes over.

Is that a fair assessment from the cheap seats?

 

[driveby]

sounds like they can just get the routes and let attrition handle some of the pilot reduction while keeping the ATA group at their current rates. Then just let it die on the vine as they SWA takes over.

Is that a fair assessment from the cheap seats?

Let me try to get things straight...

It seems initially ATN pilots thought they hit the jackpot with the merger and were expecting to be catapulted to the "top of the industry." But then, the real world kicked in and they were offered an increase in pay/QOL, but not a jackpot to the top. Because of this, it was rejected.

Now ATN wont accept other offers that are beneficial, but not "top of the industry," so SW rejects and offers to give them what they had before?

I think it will be interesting to see how the ATN pilot group fares against SW management...

 

[pullup]

How many mergers have you personally been through?

I answered this earlier in the thread when someone else tried to through out my logic and reason because I had never been through an AIRLINE merger. Truth be told the airline business is not any different than most other industries.

And what baseline are you personally using to determine what is fair and equitable?

I would look at my pay/bennies/QOL to make that assumption. I would know that SW is not going to fold like a house of cards, be appreciative of what they have given and probably accept the offer. When the group is unified at the next contract negotiation is when real negotiations can happen.

I don't pretend to know the inner working of the psychology of either side, which is why I caution everyone to reserve judgement and just hope for the best for both sides. [\quote]

Of course I hope for the best, but I live in reality.



Having a quarter of the combined group pissed off and, well, when you piss off pilots they tend to find methods of recouping some of that income and that ultimately will cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars and none of us operate in a vacuum.

Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Trust me, I've got friends on both sides of the fence, but they also recognize the true resolution is somewhere in the middle.

Ideally, yes, I don't think this will go as far into the middle as we hope for.

 

[boondr]

Let me try to get things straight...

It seems initially ATN pilots thought they hit the jackpot with the merger and were expecting to be catapulted to the "top of the industry." But then, the real world kicked in and they were offered an increase in pay/QOL, but not a jackpot to the top. Because of this, it was rejected.

Now ATN wont accept other offers that are beneficial, but not "top of the industry," so SW rejects and offers to give them what they had before?

I think it will be interesting to see how the ATN pilot group fares against SW management...

I am no psychologist but from I remember they were "apprehensively pleased" at best that it was SWA not (insert least favorite airline here). From what I have seen ATN pilots played it(seniority integration, that is) like it was a negotiation, SWA played hardball.

 

[Maurus]

I am no psychologist but from I remember they were "apprehensively pleased" at best that it was SWA not (insert least favorite airline here). From what I have seen ATN pilots played it(seniority integration, that is) like it was a negotiation, SWA played hardball.

Yup. Seems like ALPA went with the assumption that Southwest was like any other airline. The problem is that they are a very different beast. ALPA seems to have just gotten steamrolled as a result.

This still isn't over but right now the results don't look good.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I've made the decision not to ride on Southwest due to the attitude/arrogance being shown to my friends that fly at AirTran.

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't make your commute more difficult on our account. It won't change how we've been treated.

But this isn't the time to put up a fight since they gave a fair deal to start with.

Nothing about the first offer was even remotely fair. A senior captain losing 33% of his seniority is wrong. A senior FO never being allowed to upgrade before he retires is wrong. Our junior captains getting bounced around the system from month to month because of base size flexing (a SWAPA contract oddity) for the next 10 years is wrong. Our MEC did the right thing in turning down the first deal.

ALPA actually lost that one with the AA-TWA thing.

The damages from that one could huge. Like bankrupting ALPA huge.

That suit isn't over yet. We've asked the judge to set aside the jury verdict, which has happened before in DFR cases. Also, there is a second trial for damages. The jury in that trial could easily determine that no damages (or minimal damages) are appropriate. ALPA lost a DFR suit in relation to the FedEx/Flying Tigers merger years ago. The jury awarded the Flying Tigers pilots $1. I'm not too worried about bankruptcy.

 

[derg]

I answered this earlier in the thread when someone else tried to through out my logic and reason because I had never been through an AIRLINE merger. Truth be told the airline business is not any different than most other industries.

Ok, so what type of other seniority-based corporate merger have you had experience with? If I'm a lawyer and I'm interjecting into a medical discussion, I can't necessarily say "Well, law school and medical school are both post-graduate so we both have post-graduate degrees so here is my professional opinion..."


The rest... Well having been through an airline merger, I really don't see the point in engaging in debate with a user who I have no idea what his/her experience is — kind of why I pulled the ejection handle on a.net vis a vis "The 727 doesn't work like that!" / "Dude, I FLY the 727, who are you again?"

 

[MikeD]

Are things too far down the road for the whole thing to be called off? Or is there going to be a deal, one way or another?

 

[pullup]

Ok, so what type of other seniority-based corporate merger have you had experience with? If I'm a lawyer and I'm interjecting into a medical discussion, I can't necessarily say "Well, law school and medical school are both post-graduate so we both have post-graduate degrees so here is my professional opinion..."


The rest... Well having been through an airline merger, I really don't see the point in engaging in debate with a user who I have no idea what his/her experience is

I don't know what happened to my editing, anyway I'll bow out since I have never been through an airline merger.

 

[WacoFan]

At what point do the ALPA cheerleaders start to sound a little like Baghdad Bob?

ALPA won't go bankrupt! A judge will overturn the jury verdict! The damages will only be one dollar!

From what I've read, ALPA actively destroyed evidence - that alone should be reason enough for them to be ruined. USAPA wasn't going to stand, but we'll see. SWAPA just put ALPA in short-pants (by virtue of their pilots being the beneficiaries of a much better deal that ATN ALPA). Just seems to me that ALPA has certainly seen better days.

That aside - what happens IF ALPA really does get a huge, multi-billion dollar judgement against them. I can't see an assessment going over real well. Are DALPA and others looking at the TWA issue independently and deciding whether to go in-house or something prior to a judgement coming down? Why wouldn't they?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

ALPA is a better union buster than the airlines...

 

[jtrain609]

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't make your commute more difficult on our account. It won't change how we've been treated.



Nothing about the first offer was even remotely fair. A senior captain losing 33% of his seniority is wrong. A senior FO never being allowed to upgrade before he retires is wrong. Our junior captains getting bounced around the system from month to month because of base size flexing (a SWAPA contract oddity) for the next 10 years is wrong. Our MEC did the right thing in turning down the first deal.



That suit isn't over yet. We've asked the judge to set aside the jury verdict, which has happened before in DFR cases. Also, there is a second trial for damages. The jury in that trial could easily determine that no damages (or minimal damages) are appropriate. ALPA lost a DFR suit in relation to the FedEx/Flying Tigers merger years ago. The jury awarded the Flying Tigers pilots $1. I'm not too worried about bankruptcy.

I wouldn't exactly count on getting a JNOV. They're nearly impossible to get, and are overturned easily.

You're correct about the possibility of damages, and I hope you end up being correct in the end.

 

[SurferLucas]

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't make your commute more difficult on our account. It won't change how we've been treated.

I don't typically ride on them, but I stand with my friends at AirTran. Until the AirTran pilots get a fair deal, I'll just look elsewhere for a ride to work. It's the least I can do, AirTran crews have always treated me very well on the numerous times I've taken them to Denver/Seattle/Phoenix/etc.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Uh. You're not gonna let them give you a free ride? You're really pulling out all the stops!