airnow crash

[Seggy]

It is so easy to be monday quarterback.

Pilots can only react from what they know and how they are trained. The pilots of USAir 427 are at fault cause they didnt know of the rudder reversal and just made the spiral worse. Or the pilot of United 533 is at fualt cause he did not know the left engine was gone when he slowed down to his trained speed (forget what the V was, it was lost engine +5) and stalled the left wing. You can point the fingers at the pilot for almost every accident, it what started the chain of events that is important.

VERY true, but I would much rather have a pilot who didn't pay for their training up front to deal with those situations, than one who did.

 

[Ripper3785]

Exactly, the pilot should have figured she was tail heavy, THOUGHT OUTSIDE OF THE BOX, and bump PAX and Bags off. The plane flew from Huntington to CLT safely didn't it?

Your recollection of her commenting on tail heavy is incorrect. I believe the pilot of another aircraft noted that in the investigation. Maybe they should have thought outside the box and said something? No they can't be at fault, unless they were gulfstream grads too.

Blaming Air Midwest 5481 on the fact that the pilot went to Gulfstream is ridiculous and disrespectful, IMO. But to each their own. I'm no proponent of Gulfstream but the incident is being presented here as if they did something egregious to cause the accident.

 

[Seggy]

Your recollection of her commenting on tail heavy is incorrect. I believe the pilot of another aircraft noted that in the investigation. Maybe they should have thought outside the box and said something? No they can't be at fault, unless they were gulfstream grads too.

Blaming Air Midwest 5481 on the fact that the pilot went to Gulfstream is ridiculous and disrespectful, IMO. But to each their own. I'm no proponent of Gulfstream but the incident is being presented here as if they did something egregious to cause the accident.

Ever hear of the saying, "the best safety device in any aircraft is a well trained pilot..."

One who pays for training in an airline environment, pays for a job, pays for an opportunity, undermines the years of hard work experience and skill it takes to get an airline job for many others.

 

[surreal1221]

Ever hear of the saying, "the best safety device in any aircraft is a well trained pilot..."

One who pays for training in an airline environment, pays for a job, pays for an opportunity, undermines the years of hard work experience and skill it takes to get an airline job for many others.

It's no point Seggy. They won't agree with you, ever.

 

[Ripper3785]

One who pays for training in an airline environment, pays for a job, pays for an opportunity, undermines the years of hard work experience and skill it takes to get an airline job for many others.

You forgot the "and is an inherently bad pilot".

So would it be different if they went through MAPD? There they only pay for training and an interview.

I love your thinking of, "if they only wouldn't have been PFJers and had trained a better way, then this wouldn't have happened". That is a big friggin assumption.

 

[Seggy]

It's no point Seggy. They won't agree with you, ever.

True, true.

 

[Seggy]

You forgot the "and is an inherently bad pilot".

So would it be different if they went through MAPD? There they only pay for training and an interview.

I love your thinking of, "if they only wouldn't have been PFJers and had trained a better way, then this wouldn't have happened". That is a big friggin assumption.

Have you ever flown with ANYONE in a crew environment that went to Gulfstream, MAPD, or TAB Express?

 

[Ripper3785]

Have you ever flown with ANYONE in a crew environment that went to Gulfstream, MAPD, or TAB Express?

How many have you flown with?

I don't discount the majority opinion of PFJers, MAPD, et. al here. But I don't think your assessment of the accidents cause is fair. That's all. We don't have to agree. I still understand your opinion.

 

[MFT1Air]

From your comments, one can readily conclude you didn't read the reports detailing the crash and the pilot's history. One's myopic perception of the cause of an accident is truly disturbing.

I'll will admit pilot error was the precipitating factor of the accident. Fact is evident in the crew going to FL410 when truly they should have never been there. Save those antics for test pilot school; they truly went far beyond both the aircraft and pilot's capabilities.

Now. . .the pilot's . . .

• A college graduate. Embry-Riddle with a degree in aeronautical science. (He has the appropriate amount of education)
• 6750 hours of flight time. Sounds to me that's quite a lot of experience.
• Reports from many in the report indicates a very well-respected pilot for his aviation prowess.
• A CFI for quite a few years. (Doing the job the old fashioned way) Pay attention to Note 5, page 3 of the report
• A F/O at Trans State Airlines for over 17 months. (Is Trans State Airlines a PFT/PFJ?) Don't believe it is, but if I'm wrong. . .

• 2638 PIC in twin turboprop 14 CFR Part 21 operations and 912 hours SIC in the same 14 CFR Part 21 operations. (My question. . .does Gulfstream ONLY accept F/Os for their PFT/PFJ program? Does every pilot who get hired with Gulfstream get hired to perform PFJ/PFT SIC positions? This guy already had the hours. Is someone concluding he paid to get 250 hours F/O time when he already had more than that prior to his arrival at Gulfstream? I'm wondering.

• Four years of employment with Pinnacle prior to the crash. Plenty of experience flying long after his departure from Gulfstream.

Simple case of a pilot extending his limits and capabilities. From my viewpoint, no single, isolated reason for this crash other than what the report stated. Even the copilot, despite his limited flight experience, was considered competent and capable by many.

Blaming Air Midwest 5481 on the fact that the pilot went to Gulfstream is ridiculous and disrespectful, IMO. But to each their own. I'm no proponent of Gulfstream but the incident is being presented here as if they did something egregious to cause the accident.

In agreement with you wholeheartedly. Honestly, for me, the comments made about an institution such as Gulfstream are analogous with:

- many who perceive individuals who attend a junior college before transferring to 4-year college receive an inferior education than someone who attended a 4-year curriculum.

- many who perceive military officers who graduate from The Citadel or Texas A&M are less professional career officers than a West Point graduate.

- many who perceive the United States is in a bad state of economic decay because of the Republican Party. . .no, Democratic Party. . .no, Republican Party. . . .ah never mind. I've made my point.

 

[Seggy]

How many have you flown with?

I don't discount the majority opinion of PFJers, MAPD, et. al here. But I don't think your assessment of the accidents cause is fair. That's all. We don't have to agree. I still understand your opinion.

A lot. I can't get into details, but they have been the weakest captains I have flown with. I am just going to leave it at that. Give me someone who has flight instructed, flew freight, or built time ANY other way than a program like that.

 

[MFT1Air]

The fact that the school, if you can call it that, has a horrible track record.

Rather than spout an opinion, support it with concrete evidence, please. Given the fact you can't, I'm content with your position/perception that PFT/PFJ can potentially hurt the industry and the pay scale of F/Os throughout the industry. Conceding that potentiality, any concrete facts to support your position would be greatly appreciated.

If so, I'll immediately weigh your data and perhaps even support your perception.

A lot. I can't get into details, but they have been the weakest captains I have flown with. I am just going to leave it at that. Give me someone who has flight instructed, flew freight, or built time ANY other way than a program like that.

Like the NTSB, details would have helped. And again, what are you saying? Someone having spent money for 250 hours of right seat time, then 2000 hours flying somewhere else picked up all their lingering bad habits from the 250 having flown for Gulfstream?

Or are you simply saying paying for right seat time is wrong?

 

[wheelsup]

One who pays for training in an airline environment, pays for a job, pays for an opportunity, undermines the years of hard work experience and skill it takes to get an airline job for many others.

just because someone paid for time doesn't make them a *bad* pilot, maybe a bad person but not pilot.

your argument quite frankly is baseless. there is certainly no evidence that there exists a direct correlation to people who PFT'd and people who had accidents. Yes, people who "PFT'd" were involved in a few but there are quite a few people who PFT'd who don't have any accidents or violations on their record. There are also people who didn't PFT who get into accidents and get violations.

you don't/didn't see coex or comair airplanes dropping out of the sky, both companies were PFT at some point in their history.

 

[wheelsup]

Rather than spout an opinion, support it with concrete evidence, please. Given the fact you can't, I'm content with your position/perception that PFT/PFJ can potentially hurt the industry and the pay scale of F/Os throughout the industry. Conceding that potentiality, any concrete facts to support your position would be greatly appreciated.

If so, I'll immediately weigh your data and perhaps even support your perception.

exactly, has gulfstream had any accidents (non-mechanical)? you'd think that if there was a breakdown in an accident chain, it would happen while the guys that PFT'd still were building their time...

but wait, no accidents? hmm......that just doesn't make sense!?! I thought people who bought their jobs were horrible pilots and caused accidents!?!

 

[NJA_Capt]

Now. . .the pilot's . . .

• 6750 hours of flight time. Sounds to me that's quite a lot of experience.
• Four years of employment with Pinnacle prior to the crash. Plenty of experience flying long after his departure from Gulfstream.

Not sure where you got the stats, but the Capt of 3701 was only at Pinnacle for 20 months, not 4 years, and was a very new CRJ capt with 150 PIC in the CRJ. The FO was a 6 month newhire (222 sic in the CRJ). The capt had gained most of his 6900 hours in a B1900, not in a high altitude jet environment.

 

[derg]

Please, MFT1Air, with all due respect if we don't learn from accidents we're doomed to repeat them.

Thank GOD none of our families were onboard that flight because if they were and after reading the NTSB report, I'd probably be in jail right now because I did something stupid.

 

[ananoman]

Well the final report isnt even out. You just wanna see the evidence you know will make Gulfstream look bad. The dual flameout was partly because the metal in the engine expanded to the point were it seized up. The only way to restart was with the APU, but that information was not in the CRJ checklist at the time.

I agree that it is probably bad form to piss on someones grave, and I am not sure that you can draw any conclusions about Gulfsteam from these two crashes. But, reading the NTSB stuff on the Pinnacle crash is like watching someone commit suicide.

The core lock did not cause the flame out, stalling the airplane took care of that. You are probably aware that when a wing stalls, the air flowing over them gets rather turbulent and does not follow the contour of the wing like it normally would. If you are flying a jet with aft mounted engines, this disturbed airflow goes into the engines. So, instead of a nice supply of smooth ram air, the engines get fed a mess of turbulent air from the wings due to the high angle of attack/stalled condition. This is what caused the flameout.

That is one of the reasons that these airplanes have stick shakers and pushers. As you approach a stall in a swept wing airplane, you do may not get the same warning signs you do with a straight wing. And, instead of the nose pitching down with the stall, it can pitch up, making the stall worse. You can also get severe wing drop and other control problems (the tips of the wings stall first, instead of the roots, so you loose aileron effectiveness). Having the engines quit doesn't help make your day any better either.

Core lock can be caused when the engines are shut down immediately after operating at high power settings. The engine case and turbine shafts cool at different rates, causing binding. In this case, much was made of it, but since the ITT's were so high when the engines flamed out, there was probably significant engine damage anyway.

Much was also made about oversights in the training department, but this is not unique to Pinnacle. If you are in the business jet world, when you go to initial you learn your airplane period. They assume you already know basic aerodynamics. So, if you want to fly a jet in the future, it is up to you to take care of the basic background knowledge on your own.

If you think that the Pinnacle pilots did not violate any aircraft limitations, all I can say is you have some serious reading to do....

 

[surreal1221]

Rather than spout an opinion, support it with concrete evidence, please. Given the fact you can't, I'm content with your position/perception that PFT/PFJ can potentially hurt the industry and the pay scale of F/Os throughout the industry. Conceding that potentiality, any concrete facts to support your position would be greatly appreciated.

If so, I'll immediately weigh your data and perhaps even support your perception.



Like the NTSB, details would have helped. And again, what are you saying? Someone having spent money for 250 hours of right seat time, then 2000 hours flying somewhere else picked up all their lingering bad habits from the 250 having flown for Gulfstream?

Or are you simply saying paying for right seat time is wrong?

The second quote isn't mind.

 

[FlyBullFly]

While I agree with almost all of the previous postings, let us not forget why the post was started in the first place. RIP to the AirNow driver. My heart goes out to his family and friends.
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amen.

 

[MFT1Air]

Please, MFT1Air, with all due respect if we don't learn from accidents we're doomed to repeat them.

Thank GOD none of our families were onboard that flight because if they were and after reading the NTSB report, I'd probably be in jail right now because I did something stupid.

. . .and you're absolutely correct. That's exactly my point. The NTSB reports are excellent reading material for me to learn from others what to do, but also I learn what not to do.

You're absolutely right. None of OUR families were onboard, but here's the hypothetical . . .what if the captain's wife or the co-pilot's family were aviation enthusiasts who read this forum? What would THEY deduce from this thread?

Perhaps

- My husband was a bad pilot because he paid for his job by flying with Gulfstream. . .or

- My husband disgraced the aviation profession by paying for his job in order to be a better providor as a husband, father, or aviator.

If I were to look the deceased families in their faces, I do not believe in good conscience I could make those kinds of statements as the reason why their loved ones are no longer with them. I could, however, in good conscience, say that to them those pilots took the airplane beyond the prescribed capabilities of the aircraft.

Yep, I read what the occurred in many of the accidents from the NTSB reports. I do this in order to become a better pilot. I, however, perceive myself as taking a more analytical, unemotional perspective about the "facts" not attempting to draw conclusions based upon perceptions of professional or unprofessional ethcial behavior.

So Doug, I have to ask you a "what if". . .worse case scenario. Say your family was on the aircraft. What's going to put you in jail? The anger over PFT/PFJ or taking the airplane where it didn't belong?

Next time you fly commercial, are you going to query the pilot if they PFT/PFJ'd for Gulfstream? If so, I'd be curious if you receive a refund.

 

[jtrain609]

If you're so uninformed that you buy your job what makes you think that you can brief an approach correctly? It seems like a strech but seriously, if you're that short sighted I really don't know what these people are doing in an airplane that's moving along at 140 knots inside the marker.