airnow crash

I gotta agree with Jtrain on this one.

Both guys had Gulfstream in their background and both guys were extremely undiscaplined during PCL3701. They were goofs. What kind of morons switch seats? It's outside the scope of PCL's training program to be professional in the cockpit. That's supposed to be a given. Obviously, these guys didn't learn that in their previous lives, which included Gulfstream.
 
I'm only going to say this one more time.

I hate to see anyone who is willing to provide their services die at the hands of aviation. . . bottom line is. . . it is a risk we all take when we step into that plane. Professionally or for vacation, that thing could fall like a rock for a million of reasons.

So with that being said, RIP.

For those that are worried that some of us are not being cheerleaders for Gulfstream, deal with it. I have no patience for someone that supports their methods of foolery. PFJ has no place in my book, unless it's the Polar Front Jet. . . then please, be at my back.
 
Champcar said:
You show your ignorance on the subject by saying that. A accident is not caused by one thing, it is a chain of many factors. They took the CRJ to its limit but not past it. Did the people feeding you this BS tell you that the accident also has found faults in training and the CRJ procedures and checklists?
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Have you read the CVR transcript?
 
We have a max ceiling of 37,000 in the MD-90.

"Max"

Meaning that under perfect circumstances, you can fly as high as 37,000 feet.

Doesn't mean it's safe, doesn't mean it's prudent, doesn't mean that you'll have high and low speed buffett protection or that you won't cook an engine in high ISA's, it just means that sometimes it's "possible".

Nothing more... Nothing less.

Welcome to high altitude, high speed, high swept-wing jet aerodynamics. A LOT different than Beech 1900's and Cessna 172's. Almost night and day different.
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
Have you read the CVR transcript?
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yes, it was awhile ago though.

jtrain609 said:
Or read the NTSB report where it says they exceeded the limits of the aircraft.

Further is the limits of the aircraft were not exceeded, then why did it have a dual flameout and crash? Magic?
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Well the final report isnt even out. You just wanna see the evidence you know will make Gulfstream look bad. The dual flameout was partly because the metal in the engine expanded to the point were it seized up. The only way to restart was with the APU, but that information was not in the CRJ checklist at the time.
 
yes they suffered "core lock", unknown to them.

When you look at the CVR along with the FDR numbers it is easy to figure out what happened:

The max altitude for their weight was 40,400 ft. They were above that.

They were WAAAAY behind the power curve on the climb.

They ignored the stick shaker....several times

They never said their real problem to ATC and declare emergency several minutes after the dual flameout.

Say nothing of swaping seats and going to the galley...that is just petty stuff.

Finally they were at 41,000 feet with no engines, ie. glider, no glide daggummit, not some pansy azz dive that doesn't come close to widmill relight speed. They could have gone all the way to MCI or STL at that altitude.

bottom line is the pilots effed up big time. dont give me this core lock BS, they never ever never should have pushed it that far in any situation under all circumstanses, period.
 
OldTownPilot said:
yes they suffered "core lock", unknown to them.

When you look at the CVR along with the FDR numbers it is easy to figure out what happened:

The max altitude for their weight was 40,400 ft. They were above that.

They were WAAAAY behind the power curve on the climb.

They ignored the stick shaker....several times

They never said their real problem to ATC and declare emergency several minutes after the dual flameout.

Say nothing of swaping seats and going to the galley...that is just petty stuff.

Finally they were at 41,000 feet with no engines, ie. glider, no glide daggummit, not some pansy azz dive that doesn't come close to widmill relight speed. They could have gone all the way to MCI or STL at that altitude.

bottom line is the pilots effed up big time. dont give me this core lock BS, they never ever never should have pushed it that far in any situation under all circumstanses, period.
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Exactly. The engines didn't just crap out on their own, they crapped out because they took the engines out of spec. If you push a machine past where it's designed to operate, at best your a test pilot and at best it's going to simply fall apart.

We're in a very unforgiving business. If anybody here doesn't realize that yet they need to get out RIGHT NOW. These aircraft don't care that you're inside them and have no problems with rolling you up into a bloody metal ball 500' off the departure end of the runway because YOU screwed up.
 
A pilot buys his job from Gulfstream at 250 hours, is a gear monkey for another 250 hours and doesn't really learn anything.
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Gear monkey?

For those that are worried that some of us are not being cheerleaders for Gulfstream, deal with it. I have no patience for someone that supports their methods of foolery.
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As I'm not pro nor con for Gulfstream's PFJ position, I do liken it to prostitution. A prosititute is a prostitute. Shall I chastise the "john" for giving up the money when good old fashion "dating" or marriage can achieve the same result?
 
OldTownPilot said:
yes they suffered "core lock", unknown to them.

When you look at the CVR along with the FDR numbers it is easy to figure out what happened:

The max altitude for their weight was 40,400 ft. They were above that.

They were WAAAAY behind the power curve on the climb.

They ignored the stick shaker....several times

They never said their real problem to ATC and declare emergency several minutes after the dual flameout.

Say nothing of swaping seats and going to the galley...that is just petty stuff.

Finally they were at 41,000 feet with no engines, ie. glider, no glide daggummit, not some pansy azz dive that doesn't come close to widmill relight speed. They could have gone all the way to MCI or STL at that altitude.

bottom line is the pilots effed up big time. dont give me this core lock BS, they never ever never should have pushed it that far in any situation under all circumstanses, period.
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You cant just ignore the fact of the core lock that the pilots had no way of knowing about, that does not play into pilot error. Had the pilots known this and had it been in the checklists the pilots would of had a chance to re light the engines with the APU.
 
Champcar said:
You cant just ignore the fact of the core lock that the pilots had no way of knowing about, that does not play into pilot error. Had the pilots known this and had it been in the checklists the pilots would of had a chance to re light the engines with the APU.
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Accidents are a string of events...Had the pilots not pushed the plane to tis limits this wouldn't have happened......
 
JEP said:
Accidents are a string of events...Had the pilots not pushed the plane to tis limits this wouldn't have happened......
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I've already stated that. Your right, you cant blame it all on the pilots just like you can not blame it all on the plane.
 
Champcar said:
I've already stated that. Your right, you cant blame it all on the pilots just like you can not blame it all on the plane.
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I know it may be oversimplified, but:

#1 causes #2
#2 causes #3
#3 causes #4

If #1 doesn't happen....2,3,4 don't get the chance to happen.
 
JEP said:
I know it may be oversimplified, but:

#1 causes #2
#2 causes #3
#3 causes #4

If #1 doesn't happen....2,3,4 don't get the chance to happen.
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I know...i've made that clear already. But some people are trying to point the finger at te Gulfstream pilots when there is many other factors.
 
When the ITT sensors record the highest possible temp (sensor limited ie. it breaks after that because there is no reason to record any thing near that amount) at around 1200C substantial damage would occur in any engine wether it be the GE on a CRJ or a RR on a 757. I would not be surprised if the NTSB finds that an APU restart would not have worked either.

You just won't admit the pilots f'ed up big time.
 
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