airnow crash

OldTownPilot said:
You just won't admit the pilots f'ed up big time.
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while that may be, plenty of pilots from all areas of flying and experience levels have f'ed up big time. it's not limited to gulfstream 'graduates'.

maybe the real issue was with maturity in this case. having fun is one thing but totally disregarding the operations manual and flying the airplane like it's a toy says to me they had a lack of respect for other peoples stuff. that normally indicates a lack of maturity IMO (ie kids).
 
Champcar said:
Thats not true, I know this was a major PFU. I am trying to point out other factors in this case, I think it is BS to call these guys out because they went to Gulfstream.
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Well, let's see what some of the issues are that the NTSB investigators were concerned with......

Witness #1, #2, #3:
Airplane service ceiling, operating ceiling
High altitude aspects
Dual engine flame-out data during certification and development flight test
Pilot training high altitude operations
Pilot training approach to stall, full stalls, and recovery techniques
Dual engine failure checklist
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Witness #4:
CRJ ground/sim training
Pilot Training for high altitude operations
Emergency procedures training
Non-revenue operations
General stall and stall awareness training
Dual engine failure procedures and training
Flight deck duty procedures
Changes after accident
Company oversight of pilots
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Witness #5:
Company oversight of pilots
Pilot standardization and professionalism
Non-revenue operations
Adequacy of airplane/CRM training
Unsatisfactory performance during training or line operations
Disciplinary procedures
Pilot communications with ATC
Interface with FAA
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There seems to be many issues with training. And where did these pilots do their 'pre-hired' training.......I'd tell you, but we already know that.

Now to be fair, there is also mention of the core lock issue in the investigations.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/pinnacle/agenda.htm
 
JEP said:
Well, let's see what some of the issues are that the NTSB investigators were concerned with......

Witness #1, #2, #3:

Witness #4:


Witness #5:

There seems to be many issues with training. And where did these pilots do their 'pre-hired' training.......I'd tell you, but we already know that.

Now to be fair, there is also mention of the core lock issue in the investigations.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/pinnacle/agenda.htm
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The dead can't speak for themselves this time, but if they could, I would suspect first and foremost why these two individuals failed to apply:

1. The training they most certainly received at whereever they received their training.

2. When all else fails, what happened to common sense? No flight school I'm familiar teaches how to implement that aspect of human nature when training technique "application/implementation" fails.

Any idea of how many flight hours total these two had? One other question. . .were they college degreed pilots? (Trying to gather a complete perspective here)

This was a jet, correct? Is so, where did they receive that training as well?

. . .and have we digressed some in this thread. Weren't we discussing initially the AIRNOW crash?
 
I don't think success and safety at an airline is solely a product of training, I think it's heavy on experience, sprinkled with enough background training to be able to explain it above and beyond someone saying "technique only".

If there were 400 passengers onboard, we'd have mandatory high altitude/swept wing training. But there weren't so there really aren't going to be any changes made, which is bad.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I don't think success and safety at an airline is solely a product of training, I think it's heavy on experience, sprinkled with enough background training to be able to explain it above and beyond someone saying "technique only".
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Don't forget a good bit of luck. Sure when that Mooney turned crosswind WAY too early and cut me off I was pretty glad that I had been in enough near-mid air's that I knew enough to snatch the controls from my student and roll us over and away from the guy, but I'm more glad that I was lucky enough to look at the exact right part of the sky right then 'cause a few seconds later and we mighta been cut in two by that SOB.
 
a core lock cannot be fixed by trying a start using the APU. in a core lock engine components including some turbines either in the exhaust or possibly further up were melted. kind of the same scenario you have when you shut down a turbo piston engine too quickly the turbine basically melts to the casing surrounding it and it kills itslef. you cannot restart an engine with melted turbines... this was caused by pilot error. i hate to lay blame on pilots but their inexperience, lack of sound judgement, and just plain stupidity killed them. maybe if they were in a less complex aircraft for longer in a professional environment this wouldnt have happened. Obviously something went wrong... yeah you could say maybe the training by the airline was wrong or incomplete but these guys were beyond common sense. no amount of training can replace experience and judgement. the politics of it made the airlines training department out to be a "factor" when in reality it was the entire companies fault. you hire bad pilots ... they will screw up. PFT and PFJ cannot be defended rationally. the only way to honestly say anything good about the programs are that they allow you to get into airlines that otherwise wouldnt hire you for a price. your basically paying for a shortcut and trying to skimp on experience... to each their own but if you really are as lacking in common sense and experience as these two then you should seriously re-examine what aircraft and where you fly.
 
jtrain609 said:
Bro I don't know if you've realized it but Gulfstream grads crash airplanes. They brought down that Pinnacle CRJ, a Mesa Beech 1900D and it looks like one of their golden boys crashed this Airnow plane.
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Tell me how the Mesa Beech 1900D crash has ANYTHING to do with the pilot being a gulfstream grad.
 
Ripper3785 said:
Tell me how the Mesa Beech 1900D crash has ANYTHING to do with the pilot being a gulfstream grad.
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It's called primacy. If you are trained to wrong, the first time, you will do the wrong things for the rest of your career unless corrected.
 
Ripper3785 said:
Tell me what they were trained to do wrong and did wrong that caused the accident.
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Well for one they PAID for their initial training into the airline environment.

Being a pilot is SO much more than what it says in 'the books'. You have to follow the books for a guideline, but if you feel something isn't right you should look at the situation again. If I remember she even commented how she is tail heavy. She should have adjusted the trim accordingly, even though it MIGHT not have said to in the book. Or have the FO go back and take a look to see about the bags.

Places like Gulfstream don't allow you to think outside of the box.
 
sleepy3528 said:
a core lock cannot be fixed by trying a start using the APU. in a core lock engine components including some turbines either in the exhaust or possibly further up were melted. kind of the same scenario you have when you shut down a turbo piston engine too quickly the turbine basically melts to the casing surrounding it and it kills itslef. you cannot restart an engine with melted turbines... this was caused by pilot error. i hate to lay blame on pilots but their inexperience, lack of sound judgement, and just plain stupidity killed them. maybe if they were in a less complex aircraft for longer in a professional environment this wouldnt have happened. Obviously something went wrong... yeah you could say maybe the training by the airline was wrong or incomplete but these guys were beyond common sense. no amount of training can replace experience and judgement. the politics of it made the airlines training department out to be a "factor" when in reality it was the entire companies fault. you hire bad pilots ... they will screw up. PFT and PFJ cannot be defended rationally. the only way to honestly say anything good about the programs are that they allow you to get into airlines that otherwise wouldnt hire you for a price. your basically paying for a shortcut and trying to skimp on experience... to each their own but if you really are as lacking in common sense and experience as these two then you should seriously re-examine what aircraft and where you fly.
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I read a report about the core lock, It said that the APU was the only way to have a chance of freeing the engine and re lighting it. Now I dont know crap about the CRJ, I was just telling from what I have read on the issue.
 
Ripper3785 said:
Tell me what they were trained to do wrong and did wrong that caused the accident.
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It may not have been what they were trained wrong to do. But what they weren't trained about.

A school that advertises a 250 hr FO placement on a 1900D is not going to provide the same safety measures a 1200tt / 250me CFI/CFII/MEI now as a FO on a 1900D is going to provide. Obvious right?

Individuals that have the mentality that they can go from zero to right seat in 250 hour time, have no place in a 121 cockpit. IMHO.
 
Seggy said:
??
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PROBABLE CAUSE: "The airplane's loss of pitch control during takeoff. The loss of pitch control resulted from the incorrect rigging of the elevator control system compounded by the airplane's aft center of gravity, which was substantially aft of the certified aft limit. Contributing to the cause of the accident was: (1) Air Midwest's lack of oversight of the work being performed at the Huntington, West Virginia, maintenance station; (2) Air Midwest's maintenance procedures and documentation; (3) Air Midwest's weight and balance program at the time of the accident; (4) the Raytheon Aerospace quality assurance inspector's failure to detect the incorrect rigging of the elevator system; (5) the FAA's average weight assumptions in its weight and balance program guidance at the time of the accident; and (6) the FAA's lack of oversight of Air Midwest's maintenance program and its weight and balance program."
 
Seggy said:
Well for one they PAID for their initial training into the airline environment.

Being a pilot is SO much more than what it says in 'the books'. You have to follow the books for a guideline, but if you feel something isn't right you should look at the situation again. If I remember she even commented how she is tail heavy. She should have adjusted the trim accordingly, even though it MIGHT not have said to in the book. Or have the FO go back and take a look to see about the bags.

Places like Gulfstream don't allow you to think outside of the box.
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It is so easy to be monday quarterback.

Pilots can only react from what they know and how they are trained. The pilots of USAir 427 are at fault cause they didnt know of the rudder reversal and just made the spiral worse. Or the pilot of United 533 is at fualt cause he did not know the left engine was gone when he slowed down to his trained speed (forget what the V was, it was lost engine +5) and stalled the left wing. You can point the fingers at the pilot for almost every accident, its what started the chain of events that is important.
 
Ripper3785 said:
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The airplane's loss of pitch control during takeoff. The loss of pitch control resulted from the incorrect rigging of the elevator control system compounded by the airplane's aft center of gravity, which was substantially aft of the certified aft limit. Contributing to the cause of the accident was: (1) Air Midwest's lack of oversight of the work being performed at the Huntington, West Virginia, maintenance station; (2) Air Midwest's maintenance procedures and documentation; (3) Air Midwest's weight and balance program at the time of the accident; (4) the Raytheon Aerospace quality assurance inspector's failure to detect the incorrect rigging of the elevator system; (5) the FAA's average weight assumptions in its weight and balance program guidance at the time of the accident; and (6) the FAA's lack of oversight of Air Midwest's maintenance program and its weight and balance program."
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Exactly, the pilot should have figured she was tail heavy, THOUGHT OUTSIDE OF THE BOX, and bump PAX and Bags off. The plane flew from Huntington to CLT safely didn't it?
 
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