Airlines rush to add regional jets; who will fly them?

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Brand X said:
It's a natural, but unattainable, goal to have since most of you that fly RJs will fly them for the rest of your career.
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Yeah, and I'm still waiting for your contact information. Oh that's right, you pulled the ladder up when you got where you needed to go. Good luck to the rest of us.

Thanks anyway, buddy! ;)
 
Tram said:
Ah, so it sounds like you took the high road at all opportunities.. :)

You probably never worked for a low rent 135 operation, did ya?
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Or - perhaps it's the "Pulling up the ladder. . .I got mine, screw you" attitude.

Seems it like me. Such a waste, I'm sure he is a wealth of knowledge as well.

Maybe one day. . .:rolleyes:

(nevermind, cruise beat me to it.)

BobDDuck said:
Well, I think what he is saying is that the regionals have grown so much that they are now a career of their own in many cases. The funny thing is that it was guys like Brand X that allowed that to happen by relaxing scope and gutting their own contracts to save their own ass. So now there are plenty of slots for regionals to fly in AND the major pay is such crap that in many cases people who have a limited number of years left to invest in flying can do better at the regionals.

Oh sweet irony!
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While I follow, and understand exactly what you are saying. . .but in Brand X's eyes, he didn't do anything. . .especially regarding scope. He doesn't have to worry about scope flying cargo boxes full of dog #### around.
 
I don't know about you guys, but I predict regional payrates rising in the next 5 years. Very few regional pilots are moving on to greener pastures. The regional planes are getting bigger and bigger. If you look at the regional level very few airlines are non-union. Colgan and and Skywest are about it. I foresee a major pay drive at the regional level as time goes on.
 
Brand X said:
The problem is you guys are trying to turn a job that was never meant to be a career into a career.
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Ok, got it, so we shouldn't make the regionals a career. Don't try to improve conditions here...because, it's not a career anyway. :confused: Obviously, there's no point in making it better for those who will follow, right?

Brand X said:
It's a natural, but unattainable, goal to have since most of you that fly RJs will fly them for the rest of your career.
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Next Brand X point.....don't make any plans to move on from the regionals...since most of us will be stuck here throughout our careers, despite personal goals. Hmmmm, now I see where you're going with this. You're omniscient presence is beginning to shine. But wait, there's more.........just like the obnoxious tv infomercials.......

Brand X said:
You can have all the plans you want. RJ pilots are a dime a dozen. I'm sure the thousands of other commuter pilots don't "plan" on staying there for life either. Where are you ALL going to go? There is not room enough for all of you at the top. Face it, not everyone makes it to the major leagues. Someone still has to play for the minors.
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Here you wrap it all up. Nicely done, by the way. :sarcasm:
According to you.....we, regional pilots, aren't 'planning' on making the REGIONALS a career (get with the times....commuters are soooo 80's). But in a previous statement you mention that too many of us strive to make it a career? Hmmmm, now I'm really confused. Are we making this a career or not?????


Thanks Captain Obvious......gee, there's not enough room for everyone at the top. Shocker! But no worries for you, 'cause you managed to make it. The rest of us should just suck it up and continue to languish in regional squalor. Don't forget, my fellow regional pilots, what we do is not a career despite the fact only a lucky few of us will be able to move on to something bigger.
Again BX, you prove without a doubt, that it is YOU (and those like you) who is the problem with the state of the current industry. You've pulled anchor and have sailed off into your personal sunset while the rest of us lowly cretins, drowning in our own sweat here at the regionals, bow to your presence.

Care to add any more enlightenment, BX? Hold on, I don't think you have any more feet to put in your mouth........
 
Brand X said:
Let's just say that it didn't involve working for a commuter or flying passengers in any manner.
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The days of Airnet straight to UPS are more or less gone. The 135 cargo carriers are more like the regionals of the corporate world than a stepping stone to a major airline gig. UPS and their transoceanic crossing experience? How the hell are you going to get that without first working at Evergreen, Atlas, etc?

20 something years ago when you went straight from Airnet to UPS the industry was a lot different. If you were working your way up today... how would you personally go about getting hired at UPS?
 
Brand X said:
All of you will fly those RJs for whatever management decides to pay you, and you will do it willingly.
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Know what, i call bullcrap.

This guy ain't flying a $30 million airplane for less than he got paid when he was fresh out of college.

Take a two thirds pay cut to fly a $30 million airplane?

The answer isn't just no but ###### no!
 
BobDDuck said:
Well, I think what he is saying is that the regionals have grown so much that they are now a career of their own in many cases. The funny thing is that it was guys like Brand X that allowed that to happen by relaxing scope and gutting their own contracts to save their own ass. So now there are plenty of slots for regionals to fly in AND the major pay is such crap that in many cases people who have a limited number of years left to invest in flying can do better at the regionals.

Oh sweet irony!
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Yeah, you are right. Our contract was sure gutted. We only got a 20-40% pay raise right off the bat and our scope was tightened down even more. We even had to give concessions so the company would give us FREE leather jackets!!!
 
Brand X said:
Yeah, you are right. Our contract was sure gutted. We only got a 20-40% pay raise right off the bat and our scope was tightened down even more. We even had to give concessions so the company would give us FREE leather jackets!!!
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Man.. I am seriously twisted..

Are you the ultimate troll or just that much of an a$$?
 
E_Dawg said:
20 something years ago when you went straight from Airnet to UPS the industry was a lot different. If you were working your way up today... how would you personally go about getting hired at UPS?
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I dunno what UPS looks for, but at FedEx it looks like most guys have to slug it out at the regionals.. They want 121 jet time - check airman time if you can get it, or military time...

Can't get that at a Part 135 King Air outfit...

You know what they say about "Brand X" stuff.. You get what you pay for.. Shoulda gone with a name brand.. ;)
 
Well, to those people that think regional pilots are all about taking the low pay.....you're flat out wrong. If that were the case both PCL and ASA would have signed contracts years ago in exchange for more flying. I'd be making less than I am now (assuming I even TOOK the job) and we'd be flying 70-90 seat airplanes for crap wages. Those that think SKYW is a holy grail of pay, remember , they fly the -900 for the same rate as the -200. We're already gearing up for a long battle that's probably gonna end with an arbitrator induced pay rate for our 76 flying for Delta. Sorry if our fighting for higher wages seems like we're trying to make the regionals a career. Interesting that the person that was aghast that some people are fighting for wage/work rules at the regionals to make it a decent career was the same person that said some people still have to play in the minor leagues. Why not make it less painful if you get stuck there?

Trust me, if I could find a corporate gig that pays better, keeps me at home 16 days a month and doesn't require me to move to another city or commute, I'd take it. Oh yeah, and I'd have to meet the minimums. I considered Netjets for a while, until I realized I'd be upgrading here about the time I met the mins to apply there. So, I should take a job as an FO there instead of logging TPIC to move on to a major? Nah, that kinda goes against the whole "short" time of getting from the low rung on the ladder to the next one.

The problem is, everyone thinks they way they made it to where they are was the best way. It's flat out not true. Everyone has different needs, and some jobs don't statisfy those needs. Am I a chode for taking a job at a lower tier regional instead of XJT b/c I didn't want to commute? I don't think so. Besides, the extra money I would have made woulda gone right out the window on crashpads, food away from home, shuttles to the airport, etc. I think I'll make my contribution to making the career better by working at the lower tier regional and trying to make it better by either casting a "no" or "yes" vote on a contract.

Speaking of contracts, someone asked who was the last pilot group to strike. Well, thanks the the RLA, that's a totally irrelevant question. The correct question should have been "who was the last pilot group ALLOWED to strike." ASA would have been on strike LONG ago if they had been realeased for self-help. I'm pretty sure Mesaba might have gone down fighting if they would have been released as well. Unfortunately, bankruptcy judges weilded their angry gavels and said Mesaba couldn't strike and ASA has been pleading to be released for over a year now with no results. Odds are PCL is gonna be in the same boat before long. We can't just go and do illegal job actions, then we're bargaining in bad faith. Nevermind the fact that management can reap the rewards of lower costs for years by dragging their feet while we stand in line for food stamps lamenting on how we have to beg and plead to use a major tool in our negotiations.

For the record, I refused to apply at one of those TP operators that paid crap wages. I didn't think I could do that to my family, despite the fact that some members (for some reason) believe it better than the choice I made. Same with Mesa.

Finally, it's bad for a 50 seat CA to make $60-70 a year, but it's okay for a 737 CA to make $90K? If it's bad for the 50 seat guy, shouldn't the 737 CA be making at LEAST $120-140K a year? I don't see anyone (at least the non-regional guys) screaming about how the crap wages at the majors from bankruptcy are unjust. Makes it hard for the guys flying the 50 seat jets to get higher wages when the guys higher up the ladder keep applying and taking the jobs (ya know, the thing that we're supposed to not be doing?) that don't pay what they used to.
 
Brand X said:
Yeah, you are right. Our contract was sure gutted. We only got a 20-40% pay raise right off the bat and our scope was tightened down even more. We even had to give concessions so the company would give us FREE leather jackets!!!
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See, that's the problem. Not everyone is in a nice negotiation spot like UPS and FedEx pilots are. Look at the major pax carriers like NWA, US Air, Delta, etc. They've taken a beating on pay, and now have an uphill battle to get those wages back. It's much easier to point the finger at the regional guys than say "Yeah, I stuck it out here of my own choice."

In NWA's case, the mainline pilots are the ones that signed off on farming out more flying to the regionals. Until then, we were capped at lower than 70 seats. Now it's suddenly our fault that management is acting on a clause the pilots approved.
 
Cruise, and Tram. . .can we put our prior differences aside considering my observations that each of us, equally . . . have a strong distaste for the troll.

First round is on me, I promise.
 
surreal1221 said:
Cruise, and Tram. . .can we put our prior differences aside considering my observations that each of us, equally . . . have a strong distaste for the troll.

First round is on me, I promise.
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Yeh, I was sorta thinkin' the same thing earlier..

I've made my point to you.. I think you now understand where I was comin' from..

I see no reason why we can't be homies.. ;)

<---- Hands surreal1221 his mulligan.. ;)
 
kellwolf said:
See, that's the problem. Not everyone is in a nice negotiation spot like UPS and FedEx pilots are. Look at the major pax carriers like NWA, US Air, Delta, etc. They've taken a beating on pay, and now have an uphill battle to get those wages back. It's much easier to point the finger at the regional guys than say "Yeah, I stuck it out here of my own choice."

In NWA's case, the mainline pilots are the ones that signed off on farming out more flying to the regionals. Until then, we were capped at lower than 70 seats. Now it's suddenly our fault that management is acting on a clause the pilots approved.
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Is management holding a gun to your head to fly those larger planes? Let me guess, If you don't fly them, someone else will? That's the problem with the commuter airline industry. It's an entry level job that was never designed to be a career destination. Management knows this, apparently you don't. Commuter pilots have no real negotiating leverage. Management knows that there is an endless supply of wannabes that will take the job at ANY pay because they "love to fly"

Those of you that, for whatever reason, are stuck at the commuters are really in a tough spot. Management doesn't want senior pilots on their payroll (see what Eagle is doing to get rid of their deadwood). And since you have no negotiating leverage to increase pay due the constant influx of bright eyed newbies, you either have to take what management gives you or quit the commuters.
 
Tram said:
Yeh, I was sorta thinkin' the same thing earlier..

I've made my point to you.. I think you now understand where I was comin' from..

I see no reason why we can't be homies.. ;)

<---- Hands surreal1221 his mulligan.. ;)
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Excellent. . .so if you make it to NJC 07. . .and I do as well (pending), we can hug it out?
 
Brand X said:
Is management holding a gun to your head to fly those larger planes? Let me guess, If you don't fly them, someone else will? That's the problem with the commuter airline industry. It's an entry level job that was never designed to be a career destination. Management knows this, apparently you don't. Commuter pilots have no real negotiating leverage. Management knows that there is an endless supply of wannabes that will take the job at ANY pay because they "love to fly"
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For what it's worth, I will NOT fly the 76 seat airplane for the rates management has tossed on the table. Happy now? I find it asinine that you absolve mainline of all responsibility since they said "Ha. These planes are too small for us." and now they cry b/c THEIR management wants to outsource it. Forgive me if I have little sympathy for them. I can only control so much in this career. Apparently, UPS such as yourself can control more like contract negotiations, who gets what plane, etc.

You said yourself that someone has to play in the minors, now you switch back and say it's not a career destination. Which is it? You can't have both. You also say we have no real negotiating leverage but then spout off b/c we're flying jets for peanuts. Some of us are trying to make a difference, forgive me if we're attempting to get the pay rates for those jets up to where they should be. So far, I haven't seen a valid (or even invalid) response on how YOU would fix the situation. Only griping, complaining and finger pointing. Once again, do you think it would have been better for me to stay a CFI, making less money, no health insurance and away from my family than to take the current job I have now? My family and myself would have to disagree. Sorry if that shatters your worldview.

Those of you that, for whatever reason, are stuck at the commuters are really in a tough spot. Management doesn't want senior pilots on their payroll (see what Eagle is doing to get rid of their deadwood). And since you have no negotiating leverage to increase pay due the constant influx of bright eyed newbies, you either have to take what management gives you or quit the commuters.
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And, no doubt, you would suggest they quit altogether and start over since they're bringing the industry down by staying at those jobs? Personally, if I were "stuck" at a commuter (I personally don't think I am, I'm fighting to get my time and get out), I'd be doing my best to make it better, not waving a white flag and telling management I give in.
 
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