Airlines rush to add regional jets; who will fly them?

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Doug Taylor said:
It's true brotha!

When I was at Skyway and we were pressing for our first contract, the company literally threw down a Great Lakes and Mesa pay schedule on the table, and pointed to a phat stack of resumes of people applying for Skyway and asked the union where the compensation problem was.

I fully expect that when it's time for Southernjets to restore pay and benefits, they're going to plop down Skybus and Virgin America's pay rates and point to the number of applications we have on file for people willing to do the job at today's rates.

I fully expect that.

They wouldn't be fulfilling their fiduciary responsibility if they didn't.

However, my motivation is completely different. You can have both a wildly successful company AND professionally compensated professional pilots as clearly evidenced by FDX, UPS, SWA, etc.
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I think you're dead-on with this. Now, what will be the pilot community's response? THAT'S the key question. What we probably OUGHT to say is, "OK, sure, they're applying there. Are those the folks you want? Or do you want to attract more experienced, proven pilots? Do you want pilots who are just building time to move on elsewhere, or pilots who will stay with the company long term and amortize your training costs? "

We need to make it clear that they can have long term gains with suitable pay increases. Training costs them money. Recruiting costs them money. Now granted, they will pay more in salary to pilots who have been with the company longer, BUT... what they get in return is more than worth it. It's up to us to convince them of that.
 
It seems that reducing the supply of pilots may be the quickest way to bid up wages. How can this be done?

1. Raise the standards for passing checkrides (more busts = fewer pilots)
2. Raise the standards for becoming a CFI (no instructors, no pilots)
3. Reduce the number of DPEs (no examiner, no checkride, no pilot)
4. Increase costs for general aviation, which is where most pilots start out (e.g. implement "user fees" for ATC services, increase taxes on Avgas, shut down GA airports)
5. Raise the standards for medical certificates
6. Do not mentor anyone to become a pilot
7. Shut down flight schools
8. Encourage pilots you know to work overseas
9. Support foreign wars (fewer military pilots looking for civilian jobs - bombing mosques is more fun than dealing with frustrated passengers)

10. DO NOT ACCEPT A JOB IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE BITCHING ABOUT THE LOW PAY AND POOR WORKING CONDITIONS.
 
cre8flyer said:
It seems that reducing the supply of pilots may be the quickest way to bid up wages. How can this be done?

1. Raise the standards for passing checkrides (more busts = fewer pilots)
2. Raise the standards for becoming a CFI (no instructors, no pilots)
3. Reduce the number of DPEs (no examiner, no checkride, no pilot)
4. Increase costs for general aviation, which is where most pilots start out (e.g. implement "user fees" for ATC services, increase taxes on Avgas, shut down GA airports)
5. Raise the standards for medical certificates
6. Do not mentor anyone to become a pilot
7. Shut down flight schools
8. Encourage pilots you know to work overseas
9. Support foreign wars (fewer military pilots looking for civilian jobs - bombing mosques is more fun than dealing with frustrated passengers)

10. DO NOT ACCEPT A JOB IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE BITCHING ABOUT THE LOW PAY AND POOR WORKING CONDITIONS.
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Oh man there are some funny ones here....

#1 - standards are fine, PTS works great
#2 - this one I can agree with, there are some pretty piss poor CFIs out there
#3 - nah, bad enough the way it is
#4 - already getting increased the way it is, and how exactly did you get your start?
#5 - mmm...maybe, but I dunno how much higher you can get. Except for being able to run a mile in under say...10 minutes? Not picking on our chunky brothers and sisters out there (I better watch out myself) but being healthy has waaaay to many benefits, for your, the pax and the company!
#6 - wrong, wrong, wrong. See #4
#7 - see #4 and #6
#8 - fair enough, Cathay is on my radar
#9 - I will never support a war just because some guys can have jobs and blow ##### up...especially mosques. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have heard.

#10 - True, but education starts first. The number one thing for noobs to look out for? $50k in loans!
 
Based on checkrides I have taken and checkrides my friends have taken and told me about, I believe that at least some DEs are more interested in ensuring a steady stream of applicants than enforcing PTS on the initial checkride for any certificate or rating.

"As far as I'm concerned, you failed the hold. But good job, you're an instrument pilot."

That is what the guy who gave me my instrument checkride said to a friend of mine. "Failed the hold" and "you're an instrument pilot" in the same sentence!


I won't even begin to get into PTS standards and foreign students with a few examiners I sent students to.
 
Brand X said:
You can have all the plans you want. RJ pilots are a dime a dozen. I'm sure the thousands of other commuter pilots don't "plan" on staying there for life either. Where are you ALL going to go? There is not room enough for all of you at the top. Face it, not everyone makes it to the major leagues. Someone still has to play for the minors.
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Did we ever find out what you fly, Oh Thy Fount of Knowledge?
 
DE727UPS said:
Well. Last I checked, many flight training airplanes currently used were built in the 80's. What it took to fly one back then is pretty much the same it takes to fly one now. Unlike most people here, I've seen both sides of the coin, and I liked the old way better.
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Being "built" in the 80's and still performing in the same manner are not quite the same thing..

Last time I checked, in the 80's, the Seminole didn't have dual Garmin 430's.. Not that has anything to do with the level of flying, but it is an example of changes over the years..

I'm not sure if you had good or bad training with ATP, it doesn't really matter, as you are at one of the best jobs in the biz, so obviously it helped..

The point I was making, is IF you had a BAD gig with ATP, you may or may not get that today.. I would imagine some of the basic fundamentals are still the same from the 80's, however, I would bet there have been quite a number of changes since then also.. That was my point..

I mean, times are changing, when I tried to get on at a regional - just 2 years ago, you had to have 1,000 atleast to even be considered.. I went to a turboprop operator and built time there..

Now you need a pulse.. PCL is hiring guys from ATP before they even START the ACP career program....

Show up for the program.. Have your airline interview.. do the training and upon "checking said boxes.." you are now and FO at a regional..

This industry has changed for the worse over the years.. I don't think there is any going back to the wonder years..
 
Oh man, I bet he has some lackey to even do his typing for him..

When I see a DC-8 guy walking through the terminal, I tend to bow and avert my eyes, less I offend..

I sure wish he'd enlighten us with the paved with gold road which he took to the almighty DC-8..

I bet this guy is the Dale Snodgrass of DC-8's.. ;)
 
Boris Badenov said:
I take it that you consider management to be a "specialty" career also. Your argument amounts to "everyone else is getting screwed by completely out of control rapacious bosses of the new gilded age, bankrupting pension plans so they can fund ludicrous and ostentatious displays of wealth all the while sitting on the board of their buddies' companies and voting each other more outlandish pay and benefit raises. You should just be glad you aren't getting screwed any harder than any other member of the middle class!"

Well, screw that.
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Good writing, and well put. With the demise of the middle class and evaporation of labor, all of us need to take a history lesson that involves finance and politics. I believe we are being duped into some ridiculous situations under the guise of it being necessary for the company. But look at the company now, fat execs, slim labor forces, and no one entering the industry. How good is that for the company?
 
Tram said:
Oh man, I bet he has some lackey to even do his typing for him..

When I see a DC-8 guy walking through the terminal, I tend to bow and avert my eyes, less I offend..

I sure wish he'd enlighten us with the paved with gold road which he took to the almighty DC-8..

I bet this guy is the Dale Snodgrass of DC-8's.. ;)
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Let's just say that it didn't involve working for a commuter or flying passengers in any manner.
 
Brand X said:
Let's just say that it didn't involve working for a commuter or flying passengers in any manner.
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Ah, so it sounds like you took the high road at all opportunities.. :)

You probably never worked for a low rent 135 operation, did ya?
 
cre8flyer said:
It seems that reducing the supply of pilots may be the quickest way to bid up wages. How can this be done?

1. Raise the standards for passing checkrides (more busts = fewer pilots)
2. Raise the standards for becoming a CFI (no instructors, no pilots)
3. Reduce the number of DPEs (no examiner, no checkride, no pilot)
4. Increase costs for general aviation, which is where most pilots start out (e.g. implement "user fees" for ATC services, increase taxes on Avgas, shut down GA airports)
5. Raise the standards for medical certificates
6. Do not mentor anyone to become a pilot
7. Shut down flight schools
8. Encourage pilots you know to work overseas
9. Support foreign wars (fewer military pilots looking for civilian jobs - bombing mosques is more fun than dealing with frustrated passengers)
Click to expand...
So, in summary, "I got mine, now pull up the rope."
 
Well, I think what he is saying is that the regionals have grown so much that they are now a career of their own in many cases. The funny thing is that it was guys like Brand X that allowed that to happen by relaxing scope and gutting their own contracts to save their own ass. So now there are plenty of slots for regionals to fly in AND the major pay is such crap that in many cases people who have a limited number of years left to invest in flying can do better at the regionals.

Oh sweet irony!
 
So after spending about 3 hours perusing this thread and enjoying 120ozs of Mickey's, I am now ready to post. 114 posts to one thread just isn't enough.

So, who here that works for ANY regional airline did NOT know what they were getting themselves into? I just wonder because I have known for YEARS that the first few years at a regional/commuter has SUCKED. I have heard it all...blame management, let's all strike, let's raise standards to weed out people, let's not even apply...blah, blah, blah. I have decided to stay around in the AF to gain a reasonable pension, because I do not expect to make squat in aviation for at least 5 years, if not longer. I am preparing for that. I am a firm believer of "plan for the worst and hope for the best." As the article mentioned about 18 pages ago, one of them fellas moved on to drive trucks. He has done what he had to do. If you are 19 years old and have the desire to have a 60K loan @ 18% interest in hopes of getting that 19K regional job, go for it. If you make it, good on you, I bet it will build quite a respect for the almighty dollar. If you don't make it, then you'll have to rack it up to "learning an expensive lesson."

Please don't think that I condone the wages...I think it is deplorable what a junior FO makes, but it is what it is. The grass IS greener on the other side, but that's only because there is more dung over there.
 
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