Airlines rush to add regional jets; who will fly them?

[tprops4me]

After reading this thread for the first time, my wheels started to spin. I am pro-pilot, after all I am in my late 20's and a VERY POSSIBLE career changer. I would have to agree with everyone that the pay rate that regional FO's start at is unlivable and the QOL has a left a lot to be desired.

Yes, it is a sad day when a CFI at an average flight school can make more, and in some cases, significantly more than an FO at a regional. Yes, those who pursue this career do it for a love of the profession (why else would we miss holiday's, birthdays, anniversary's, etc.). However, instead of complaining about the wages in this industry, have we ever stopped to look at the other side?

Think about this, most of the work force as a whole is down when it comes to pay (with the exeption of "specialty" careers such as Docs.,

Lawyers, etc. Yes, aviation is a specialty, I understand that). Most college graduates come out of school with $30,000 to $60,000 debt in student loans. Most of these individuals go into business, engineering or sales. Their salary, $35,000 to $45,000. Not bad, but not what it was a few years ago either.

Unlike the aviation profession, raises in the corporate world are now self imposed. Most cases the only way an individual gets a raise is to give one to themselves by switching companies, fields, etc. There is no annual raise, very rarely is there a cost of living adjustment or a yearly bonus.

In the case of sales, only the lucky ones have some sort of salary. Most are commission only. In a bad economy, it is not "I wish I was making this much more", "it is S*^T, I can't pay the bills!" When comparing aviation to other fields, it is not always as bad as it may seem!

Is aviation pay what it once was? Not unless you are flying for a Fortune 500 company. Will it ever go back to where it was? Probably not. Is the pay after x amount of years in the field better than most other careers? Yes!

If everyone had to fly a desk or worry about monthly numbers for a few years, the look on avaition may not be so dark. Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, in all aspects of the field. However, the same can be said for every field!

Again, I am pro-aviation! Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, however when comparing it to other fields, it is still pretty damn good!

:yeahthat: It is not that great right now in non aviation fields. Let's look at the month of July. I have a job where I work Mon-Fri, 8:00 to 5:00. I only had 9 days off this month. I am salary so my hours are rarely 8-5. There are meetings after work, and sometimes I have to come in on the weekends. Even though I am home every night, unless away on business, I sometimes only get to see my wife for an hour a day. My current salary is liveable, but I don't look forward to the 3% max raise that I may get per year. After running some numbers, I could surpass my pay after a few years at a regional, and even if I had to retire at a regional, I would make way more at the end than my 3% raises would give me. I could make a lateral move in my industry, and possibly make more, but if I am going to make a move, it's going to be something I want to do. No, I would never work for Gojet, or Freedom, or any of the sorts, but I am going to fly. I am sorry if past negotiations made the pay worse than it used to be. It is better than what I have now. It's what I want to do. Working for someone else sucks. Period! You have to ballance your options.

 

[Trip7]

So, some of the others you mentioned are better. They certainly aren't good considering the equipment and type of flying. That is the point. Not that most are better than Mesa but rather that they ALL are sub-par. Since so many of you take this personally because you are so committed to defending your stand on accepting a job like this, I have to say yet again: I'm not hatin' on ya! It just happens to be the way that me and most of my colleagues feel on the subject.

I see, this sounds more like we have a difference in opinion when it comes to compensation. I see regional pilots flying 50 seat aircraft for 35k-50k as FOs after first year and 70k-80k as 3-5 year captains to be pretty decent. What kind of compensation do you believe these pilots should make?

 

[wheelsup]

Many of the other alternatives aren't 24/7 "on call". This becoming more rare in the corporate and charter industry. You should know this if you're keeping up with what's going on.

You're absolutely right, I have not cold called every charter and corporate department to find out what the break down is. I do know that I have seen many more "on call" jobs in the charter world than scheduled. One thing I have seen is an increase in the 5/2 schedule, although that's still permanent reserve, which depending on how much you fly can be a positive (if you don't fly fly) or a negative (you fly a lot).

Personally, I like knowing exactly which days I'm working a month in advance. I consider it a QOL item, and is worth a significant amount of money on the front end to me. Others have a different view, which is why they do their job and I do mine!

Either way, it's irrelevant, I was using this as an alternative example to working for a regional, not long term. Build the time and apply to the "majors", for those of you who absolutely insist that working for a major airline is the ultimate goal.

So as an alternative for someone not going to a regional, do you feel there are significant opportunities for those with <1000 TT and <100 multi in high end charter departments? I do not. Those people would be working for companies at the low end of the pay and work rule spectrum, putting them into the same situation as working for a regional (doing the job of someone else for less). Yes I know, some people get really high paying jobs right off the bat, but it isn't the norm.

 

[Minuteman]

Dear airlines that rush to add regional jets and still bitch about "fat cat corporate jets clogging-up" the NAS,

STFU.

You smartskies ads kept me awake all night as I tried to sleep on a cot in the airport after your cracker-asses got me to your hub, delayed with a missed-connection for the 8:30 small-jet, cancelled the 9:30 small-jet, and tried to pile-on the 47 confirmed passengers plus the 84 now-standby people on to the 10:30 small-jet. I even paid a lot more for the earlier flight so I'd have a better chance should adverse weather occur. Obviously you're a more-sophisticated adversary than I thought.

If you had one large aircraft later in the day (paying one flight crew a reasonable wage instead of a 1/3-wage to three crews and making a snowballing standby problem, you wouldn't have as much of a NAS congention problem, and wouldn't be on my banned-for-six-months list.

Hate,
Minuteman

 

[jonnyb]

That may be the case. I don't think that there are too many regional F/Os bringing in 50K without working additional hours. $70-80K as a 3-5 year captain is pretty bad (worse than 40-50K as an FO). Is that all you think they're worth? A captain of a 50-90 seat jet that weighs 50-90,000 lbs. flying all over the continent should be working for a mainline carrier besides making substantially more than $70-80,000.

See, this is my point exactly. The fact that you and so many others think that those low rates are good or decent really puts in perspective what has happened in this section of the industry.

 

[wheelsup]

flying all over the continent should be working for a mainline carrier besides making substantially more than $70-80,000.

Mainline pilots didn't want that flying. In fact, pilots even GAVE it away pre-911 in exchange for more top end pay.

 

[n57flyguy]

So as an alternative for someone not going to a regional, do you feel there are significant opportunities for those with <1000 TT and <100 multi in high end charter departments? I do not. Those people would be working for companies at the low end of the pay and work rule spectrum, putting them into the same situation as working for a regional (doing the job of someone else for less). Yes I know, some people get really high paying jobs right off the bat, but it isn't the norm.

I'm confused by that.

 

[BobDDuck]

I have a job where I work Mon-Fri, 8:00 to 5:00. I only had 9 days off this month. I am salary so my hours are rarely 8-5.

You had 9 24 hour periods off. However, even saying you had to work 7 to 6 every day you did work (call it 21 days) that's still an additional 273 HOURS (or just over 11 days) "off" you had, compared to an airline schedule of 4 day trips.

 

[wheelsup]

I'm confused by that.

I'm confused by your confusion.

 

[OnTheFly7]

I take it that you consider management to be a "specialty" career also. Your argument amounts to "everyone else is getting screwed by completely out of control rapacious bosses of the new gilded age, bankrupting pension plans so they can fund ludicrous and ostentatious displays of wealth all the while sitting on the board of their buddies' companies and voting each other more outlandish pay and benefit raises. You should just be glad you aren't getting screwed any harder than any other member of the middle class!"

Well, screw that.

Management...................specialty...............you're joking right! There is nothing wrong with management, but it is surely not specialty. The only special training that management gets is in delegation.

To support your quote, I think you nailed it on the head. That is every career field right now. Granted these examples are a few years old, however do you remember Enron, how about Arthur Anderson? Same kind of thing happens in every company in every career field.

My only argument and it is not much of one, is that I wish more people were career changers. That way, more people would understand that the aviation field is not that bad. Volitale, hell yes. Other than that, most, not all, but most pilots have it pretty darn good! That is also one of the attractions to the field. The variety of directions in which we can go to pursue the type of flying that full fills us the most!

Does entry level pay across the board need to increase? Yes!!!

Does entry level QOL need to increase? Yes!!!

Is $175,000 to $200,000 annual income not enough? I doubt it!
Although not what it once was, I think we all have come to the conclusion that pilot pay won't reach the historic highs that it once did.

When pilots start saying that they can not live on, or support their family with that type of salary, I say change your lifestyle. It reminds me of the multi-million dollar cry babies who say 5 to 10 million is not enough!

Do pilots work extremely hard to get where they are? Of course they do!

Just because we work hard does not mean we deserve that level of pay. Any wonder why this is being called the "Entitlement Generation"?

Pursue the career because you enjoy it! Perform at your best and try to be the best at it! Make time for your loved ones! You will be a happy person!

Rant over!

 

[jonnyb]

You're absolutely right, I have not cold called every charter and corporate department to find out what the break down is. I do know that I have seen many more "on call" jobs in the charter world than scheduled. One thing I have seen is an increase in the 5/2 schedule, although that's still permanent reserve, which depending on how much you fly can be a positive (if you don't fly fly) or a negative (you fly a lot).

Personally, I like knowing exactly which days I'm working a month in advance. I consider it a QOL item, and is worth a significant amount of money on the front end to me. Others have a different view, which is why they do their job and I do mine!

It's a stepping stone! You talk as if you already work for a major-so worried about QOL. There will be plenty of time for that, when you get some experience, and a career position! I don't understand your mentality or way of thinking. I think this is where the breakdown of communication comes in.

So as an alternative for someone not going to a regional, do you feel there are significant opportunities for those with <1000 TT and <100 multi in high end charter departments? I do not. Those people would be working for companies at the low end of the pay and work rule spectrum, putting them into the same situation as working for a regional (doing the job of someone else for less). Yes I know, some people get really high paying jobs right off the bat, but it isn't the norm.

You're right, people shouldn't be flying jets or tp's (IMO) with less than 1000 hours. They should be teaching or flying banners or dropping skydivers etc. Look at how so many of these up and coming professionals expect to obtain these regional positions shortly after obtaining a commercial pilots license! This is an expectation!anic:

Regarding the statements you and several of the other regional pilots have made regarding the alternative positions I've mentioned, I keep hearing the same thing: There aren't that many jobs, the QOL isn't exactly what I prefer, they don't hire with less than 1000 hours etc. etc. etc. With the obvious exception of the 1000 hour requirement, the rest are just excuses. There are plenty of much better alternative solutions, one just has to go get them!

 

[wheelsup]

It's a stepping stone! You talk as if you already work for a major-so worried about QOL. There will be plenty of time for that, when you get some experience, and a career position! I don't understand your mentality or way of thinking. I think this is where the breakdown of communication comes in.

OK, so what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about QOL and take a job that pays crap to build experience in order to get to a major? I had an opportunity to fly a Challenger for a 135 company for $19k/yr, quick upgrade, I turned it down. Are you saying that would be the best course of action? Just because it's not a 121 carrier?

You're right, people shouldn't be flying jets or tp's (IMO) with less than 1000 hours. They should be teaching or flying banners or dropping skydivers etc. Look at how so many of these up and coming professionals expect to obtain these regional positions shortly after obtaining a commercial pilots license! This is an expectation!anic:

Touche! Although it's not an expectation, it's the way it is right now. 100 years ago no one expected to get a car when they turned 16. Now it's the norm. You talk as if you are 70 years old...which honestly I have no idea how old you are, but it's very "I had to do this, so you have to too" schoolish.

Regarding the statements you and several of the other regional pilots have made regarding the alternative positions I've mentioned, I keep hearing the same thing: There aren't that many jobs, the QOL isn't exactly what I prefer, they don't hire with less than 1000 hours etc. etc. etc. With the obvious exception of the 1000 hour requirement, the rest are just excuses. There are plenty of much better alternative solutions, one just has to go get them!

But what if I don't want to work charter or corporate? Why should I do something I don't like to do? In fact, the only reason I would ever consider doing it would be for the extra pay.

 

[Fly4Pay]

I'm confused by that.

I'm confused by your confusion.

Huh?

 

[Tram]

100 years ago no one expected to get a car when they turned 16. Now it's the norm.

I wouldn't call it the norm..

You talk as if you are 70 years old...which honestly I have no idea how old you are, but it's very "I had to do this, so you have to too" schoolish.

Yeh, I am getting that from him too..

"You have time to worry about QOL?" - Yeh, because when you get the todays super major (tomorrows bankrupt major) they give you all the time back to make up for the days, weeks and years you lost getting the "goal."

Life is about the journey, not the destination...

It's a simple case of "my brain works like this, your brain works like that..."

Some guys live to work.. Some guys work to live.. Pick a group..

 

[OnTheFly7]

I wouldn't call it the norm..



Yeh, I am getting that from him too..

"You have time to worry about QOL?" - Yeh, because when you get the todays super major (tomorrows bankrupt major) they give you all the time back to make up for the days, weeks and years you lost getting the "goal."

Life is about the journey, not the destination...

It's a simple case of "my brain works like this, your brain works like that..."

Some guys live to work.. Some guys work to live.. Pick a group..

I vote for another group..................No Work!:rawk:

 

[Fly4Pay]

The more Oil goes up in price, the less you'll see in your paycheck (in this industry). In any normal situation, if the cost of production goes up, the pricetag of the final product goes up. You pass the cost on to the consumer. In the airline industry, the prices just go lower and so do the wages. It's f-ed up, but what can you do? Was this problem non-existant during regulation?

Here's an example, starbucks just raised its price of coffee by 9 cents. I don't think the guy behind the counter is making any less, though.

Actually, this is an interesting comparison. True, the guy behind the counter who was there yesterday, may not be making less, but the next guy hired probably WILL be.

But there's a different reason why the pay situation is different there--Starbucks doesn't have 10 competitors selling the same coffee at lower prices. You may like Starbucks, you may not, but they have built a national brand that has no serious competition on a nationwide scale. Therefore, they are in complete control of supply. They can raise their coffee prices 9 cents, and you can take it or leave it.

If an airline, on the other hand, raises fares 10 bones to cover higher labor costs, they are going to suffer when Joe Blow goes to Expedia and books a flight from point A to point B. Joe won't look at the fares and say, "well, these guys cost more, but they pay their pilots more to get better pilots. " He just picks the cheaper fare.

Competition is what has driven airlines to lower wages AND fares. NOW... back to the start of the thread. At some point, there WILL be a rebound. Once airlines cancel enough flights, they will get a bad reputation for their reliability. That will influence people to avoid them to keep their travel plans intact. The airline will have to either hire more people to keep the schedule, or eventually go out of business. At that point, demand (for pilots) will have gone up, and they will have to pay their pilots more (otherwise, if the pay was sufficient, they'd have already had enough pilots).

I firmly believe that, absent another 9/11-type event, we are headed for a correction in pilot wages. Might not be as quick as we'd all like, but it'll happen.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Yeh, I am getting that from him too.."

JonnyB is one of the few guys at this forum that was around when 1000 hours wouldn't buy you a right seat job in a Cessna 402. Those of us that saw those days simply believe that the higher standard that was the norm, back then, was better than seeing 500 hour guys in the right seat of an airline jet that holds 90 people and says "United" on the side of it.

So, for the record, you can add me to the "old skool" list.

 

[Tram]

So, for the record, you can add me to the "old skool" list.

You've been on that list since day one, don't worry..

I learned to fly from a group of guys a bit more old skool than yourselves.. I understand what you all are saying..

However, like in one of your more recent posts: "In the 80's I went to ATP.. You don't want to hear that story again..."

That story is practically void and nill.. That's like saying "Well, the last time I was in Cabo, was in the 80's, I'm sure it hasn't changed any..."

In the 80's - Punky Brewster was Queen..
In the 80's - Gas was what, a buckoNine, a gallon?
In the 80's - You could get a ticket from ATL to MIA on EAL..
In the 80's - I was anywhere from 1 to 9 years old..
In the 80's....


This is almost 2010.. Time to start acting like it..

 

[jonnyb]

A challenger position for $19K? I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who has heard of anything of the sort, but of course, that is the example you bring to the table. Give me a break.

OK, so what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about QOL and take a job that pays crap to build experience in order to get to a major?

No, you know exactly what I'm saying, quit playing games. The whole point of the alternative would be that you are working for acceptable wages even though your quality of life for a SHORT time may or may not be exactly what you want. No one flies a challenger for $19K, what a ridiculous example. Even if someone did, it certainly wouldn't be looked highly upon when it came to the next job or interview, with the exception of an airline interview of course.

Like I said man, the communication gap is just too large. I really don't know why I keep wasting my time on this topic. You all have made up your mind, the ones that will follow you have made up their minds as well and there is no possible way for you to see the alternative. You HAVE to defend your positions, there is no question about that. None of you are convincing any of us who have been doing this for a while that what your doing is ok. That's all I have to say about that.

Now, when I see y'all at Network JC's one of these days, you betta sho the love!

 

[derg]

I firmly believe that, absent another 9/11-type event, we are headed for a correction in pilot wages. Might not be as quick as we'd all like, but it'll happen.

I agree as well.

But it's going to require A LOT of education in the meantime and luckily with everyone and his uncle running an internet forum these days, the job will be significantly easier.

The big concern I have is that the 'powers that be' are masters at their job of driving down costs. Whenever some low paid op like "Skybus" pops up, there's a division in the profession between people thinking "This is better than what I'm making at XYZ/I'll just be there shortly to get on at a better airline" and the "Holy crap, now we're going to be asked to compete cost-wise with these a-holes". Mix in a little entitlement complex on both sides, sprinkle on a few Type-A personalities and management laughs their ass all the way to the bank.

We've got to keep getting the word out to the next (and current in some cases) generation that this is a profession, not a 'kool neato job where I can listen to my iPod, pick up on hot stewardesses and brag about passing up a FDX MD-10 on the ILS'.

It's not going to be easy, but it's attainable. Cards are gradually starting to stack in our favor, but we have to be able to take advantage of opportunity to correct the situation.

We just can't continue to be candyasses about protecting and reviving the profession.

My opinion only, your mileage may vary.