H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
Freedom is an ALPA carrier and has been for several years now. That's why Mesa has a ###### contract, so they could fold Freedom into the union and stop the whipsaw.
Airlines rush to add regional jets; who will fly them?
- Thread starter Minnesota_Flyer
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Freedom is an ALPA carrier and has been for several years now. That's why Mesa has a ###### contract, so they could fold Freedom into the union and stop the whipsaw.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
Some of those short sighted morons had their contracts shoved down their throat by a bankrupcy judge.
It was either take as much as you can or take the lower pay and work rules the company would force on you. No company was going to go for higher pay after emergence from bankruptcy. It would look as though all the cuts had been for not.
Brand X
Well-Known Member
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
E_Dawg
Moderator
Just for reference. To serve as a comparison of the commuter/regional industry today vs what it was like in the last decade.
Timbuff10
Well-Known Member
Some of those short sighted morons had their contracts shoved down their throat by a bankrupcy judge.
So this is where the pilot group should force their hand then. Walk for a day or two and see what happens. If the airline can afford it, pay will come up, if not then another is around the corner.
Too bad there is no national seniority list.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
Then the whole RLA thing comes into play. The airlines can say we cut pay to streamline our operations, and make ourselves more competative with other regional airlines. It's a slippery slope. Now those regionals who didn't go into bankruptcy can probably pull of what you came up with. Regionals are becoming cut throat operators. If you can't submit an RFP that is competative or lower than other regionals that sbmitted their RFP for the same flying, you're pretty much toast, especially if you are operating planes that are owned by the mainline you're operating for. They can give and take those aircraft at will. We found that out as well as Pinnacle.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
What's up with the double t's, brother? Keyboard tourette's?
Yeah I guess. I was trying to type and pay attention to our afternoon mx conference call! I de-touretts'd it!:cwm27:
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
People talk about pilots need to strike to tell management that they are serious. Can anyone tell me the last pilot group to strike since 9/11? I don't think any group has. I hear all the time "Taking it back!" But who's doing it. This industry is screwed up. I believe the last pilot group to strike was CMR, which was a huge step for the regional gals/guys. Correct me if I'm wrong.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Ed, the only right thing to do in my opinion is to go work for a turbo-prop operator for these extremely low regional pay rates. That's the kind of flying those rates were designed for. Flying professionally in a 50-100,000 lb. airplane for $20-30/ hour as an F/O or $60-90/ hour as a captain is not right, period. No one HAS to go fly an airplane like that for those rates, there are other options. Like what has been stated already, the more pilots that are willing to fly these "larger" regional jet airplanes for these rates, the more opportunities the airlines will provide. I know it sucks for some of you and I'm not hatin', I just wish this wasn't happening.
Most of you guys who work for a regional now have the time to research new and different positions. Charter is off the hook right now, there are lots of jobs. Leave the airlines hanging out to dry. If no one applies they WILL pay more, the scope will change etc. It probably won't happen but it IS possible.
CapnJim
Well-Known Member
I can't see how anyone could think that flying a t-prop for they wages they are paid is somehow more justifiable.
Railing against the regionals is just becoming more and more wrongheaded as time goes by. The rates keep going up and up, and I enjoy better work rules and benefits then some majors.
I think people should do a little more back-checking before they pass judment on tens of thousands of pilots. It's not all Mesa, and it's not all 300 hour wonders.
Railing against the regionals is just becoming more and more wrongheaded as time goes by. The rates keep going up and up, and I enjoy better work rules and benefits then some majors.
I think people should do a little more back-checking before they pass judment on tens of thousands of pilots. It's not all Mesa, and it's not all 300 hour wonders.
slamma1906
New Member
scramjet
Well-Known Member
True, but assuming the stratospheric oil prices knock a few companies off or least (more likely) lead to some mergers, there will be less competition and many airlines will be able to charge a lot more at fortress hubs (like USAir and PIT in the '90s and the early '00s). Less point to point low fare competition could see the airlines head more heavily back to this system of fortress hubs. The only reason Joe Cheaptraveller is flying a lot more now is because there is a lot of competition and therefore low prices, heck in some instances its cheaper for him to fly instead of drive. He'd change his practices if the industry changed. Although I think this scenario in the United States would drastically reduce pilot demand, if the airlines were able to charge higher and still be competitive, SOME companies might have higher profit margins after a few years of industry adjustment which would be a strong bargaining point for labor. But then again, that doesn't at all mean the return to good pay again.
It'll be fascinating ten-fifteen years from now what the industry will look like if it stays the way it is today and the pilot numbers decrease the way the many expect them to. The majors might hire 1,000 TT F/Os or S/Os and pay the them regional wages (if the demand gets bad), that'd be horrible because there would be guys willing to do that too since it'd be their first flying job...
OnTheFly7
Well-Known Member
After reading this thread for the first time, my wheels started to spin. I am pro-pilot, after all I am in my late 20's and a VERY POSSIBLE career changer. I would have to agree with everyone that the pay rate that regional FO's start at is unlivable and the QOL has a left a lot to be desired.
Yes, it is a sad day when a CFI at an average flight school can make more, and in some cases, significantly more than an FO at a regional. Yes, those who pursue this career do it for a love of the profession (why else would we miss holiday's, birthdays, anniversary's, etc.). However, instead of complaining about the wages in this industry, have we ever stopped to look at the other side?
Think about this, most of the work force as a whole is down when it comes to pay (with the exeption of "specialty" careers such as Docs., Lawyers, etc. Yes, aviation is a specialty, I understand that). Most college graduates come out of school with $30,000 to $60,000 debt in student loans. Most of these individuals go into business, engineering or sales. Their salary, $35,000 to $45,000. Not bad, but not what it was a few years ago either.
Unlike the aviation profession, raises in the corporate world are now self imposed. Most cases the only way an individual gets a raise is to give one to themselves by switching companies, fields, etc. There is no annual raise, very rarely is there a cost of living adjustment or a yearly bonus.
In the case of sales, only the lucky ones have some sort of salary. Most are commission only. In a bad economy, it is not "I wish I was making this much more", "it is S*^T, I can't pay the bills!" When comparing aviation to other fields, it is not always as bad as it may seem!
Is aviation pay what it once was? Not unless you are flying for a Fortune 500 company. Will it ever go back to where it was? Probably not. Is the pay after x amount of years in the field better than most other careers? Yes!
If everyone had to fly a desk or worry about monthly numbers for a few years, the look on avaition may not be so dark. Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, in all aspects of the field. However, the same can be said for every field!
Again, I am pro-aviation! Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, however when comparing it to other fields, it is still pretty damn good!
Yes, it is a sad day when a CFI at an average flight school can make more, and in some cases, significantly more than an FO at a regional. Yes, those who pursue this career do it for a love of the profession (why else would we miss holiday's, birthdays, anniversary's, etc.). However, instead of complaining about the wages in this industry, have we ever stopped to look at the other side?
Think about this, most of the work force as a whole is down when it comes to pay (with the exeption of "specialty" careers such as Docs., Lawyers, etc. Yes, aviation is a specialty, I understand that). Most college graduates come out of school with $30,000 to $60,000 debt in student loans. Most of these individuals go into business, engineering or sales. Their salary, $35,000 to $45,000. Not bad, but not what it was a few years ago either.
Unlike the aviation profession, raises in the corporate world are now self imposed. Most cases the only way an individual gets a raise is to give one to themselves by switching companies, fields, etc. There is no annual raise, very rarely is there a cost of living adjustment or a yearly bonus.
In the case of sales, only the lucky ones have some sort of salary. Most are commission only. In a bad economy, it is not "I wish I was making this much more", "it is S*^T, I can't pay the bills!" When comparing aviation to other fields, it is not always as bad as it may seem!
Is aviation pay what it once was? Not unless you are flying for a Fortune 500 company. Will it ever go back to where it was? Probably not. Is the pay after x amount of years in the field better than most other careers? Yes!
If everyone had to fly a desk or worry about monthly numbers for a few years, the look on avaition may not be so dark. Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, in all aspects of the field. However, the same can be said for every field!
Again, I am pro-aviation! Yes, there is room for improvement in aviation, however when comparing it to other fields, it is still pretty damn good!
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of the regional pilots are looking for other options, but honestly they don't appeal to many of us. Working on call 24/7 just really isn't an option I want to pursue. And the pay raise really wouldn't be that much, if any. Add to that pretty much zero flexibility in the work environment and it isn't that rosy of a package IMO.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I don't know what all the doom and gloom is about. Every regional is not Mesa or Pinnacle pay. Funny how these articles always mention a regional at the bottom of the barrel in terms of payscale or QOL. They never mention a SKW, XJET or Republic. Most FOs I know had low first year pay then make anywhere for 35k to 50k 2nd year. Then throw in that you'll most likely upgrade within the next three years and the compensation gets even better. Not bad at all, especially if you're young and single like most regional pilots. Plus, now that the airlines are profiting once again and contract talks coming up, the pilot group has leverage, especially with a pilot shortage. Its simple supply and demand. Pay is going nowhere but up. I have no doubt about it. Watch how Republic's new contract is going to look
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I take it that you consider management to be a "specialty" career also. Your argument amounts to "everyone else is getting screwed by completely out of control rapacious bosses of the new gilded age, bankrupting pension plans so they can fund ludicrous and ostentatious displays of wealth all the while sitting on the board of their buddies' companies and voting each other more outlandish pay and benefit raises. You should just be glad you aren't getting screwed any harder than any other member of the middle class!"
Well, screw that.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Many of the other alternatives aren't 24/7 "on call". This becoming more rare in the corporate and charter industry. You should know this if you're keeping up with what's going on.
Either way, it's irrelevant, I was using this as an alternative example to working for a regional, not long term. Build the time and apply to the "majors", for those of you who absolutely insist that working for a major airline is the ultimate goal.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
I don't know what all the doom and gloom is about. Every regional is not Mesa or Pinnacle pay. Funny how these articles always mention a regional at the bottom of the barrel in terms of payscale or QOL. They never mention a SKW, XJET or Republic. Most FOs I know had low first year pay then make anywhere for 35k to 50k 2nd year. Then throw in that you'll most likely upgrade within the next three years and the compensation gets even better. Not bad at all, especially if you're young and single like most regional pilots. Plus, now that the airlines are profiting once again and contract talks coming up, the pilot group has leverage, especially with a pilot shortage. Its simple supply and demand. Pay is going nowhere but up. I have no doubt about it. Watch how Republic's new contract is going to look
So, some of the others you mentioned are better. They certainly aren't good considering the equipment and type of flying. That is the point. Not that most are better than Mesa but rather that they ALL are sub-par. Since so many of you take this personally because you are so committed to defending your stand on accepting a job like this, I have to say yet again: I'm not hatin' on ya!
It just happens to be the way that me and most of my colleagues feel on the subject.- Status