Airlines advised to start raising pay to...retain labor.

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...outlook_26bus.ART.State.Edition1.26fefda.html

Airlines advised to start raising pay to attract, retain employees

NEW ORLEANS – Airlines must eventually begin raising wages – even with the cost pressures they face – if they want to attract and retain employees, an aviation consultant said Monday.

Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group International, said airlines face the possibility that they won't be able to attract employees, particularly pilots, without reversing the cost pressure to lower pay.

"We have an airline industry that is no longer going to be operating on low wages," Boyd said at his company's annual aviation conference in New Orleans. "We're not going to have that anymore."

He and others warned that regional carriers may be particularly pressured by costs as they deal with two safety-related pushes from the federal government: assuring more rest for pilots and requiring more hours of experience before pilots can fly commercial airlines.

Speaking of a proposal to set 1,500 hours as the minimum flight time for a new regional airline pilot, "that's another $40 million in training: $40 million so you can get a $25,000 a year job and get based in Newark?" Boyd said.

"What we're seeing is that compensation has to go up dramatically through all levels. You've got to attract people, so you're going to have to pay them. And if they're going to have to have that much training and expertise, you're going to have to raise the rates you pay them," he said.

Michael Baida, another aviation consultant who also flies as a United Airlines Inc. captain, said his job has assured a good life for him, particularly now that he's a Boeing 747 pilot.

But Baida said he doesn't know whether he would enter the profession today if he had to make the same decision he made decades ago.

Speaking after the meeting, Allied Pilots Association president Dave Bates said he concurs that the pilot profession must see increased wages.

"We've had dramatic reductions in our earning ability over the last 20 years," said Bates, an American Airlines Inc. pilot. "If airlines want to have pilots to fly their aircraft, they're going to have to correct that situation."

Boyd and William Swelbar, research engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the increased employee costs will have a negative impact on air service to smaller cities.

"It seems as we start to see costs push on the regional side particularly ... there are going to be markets that are just uneconomic to serve going forward," Swelbar said.

He said the U.S. needs to re-examine how it hands out funding for the 450 U.S. airports that have commercial air service. Of that group, 200 handle 97 percent of the domestic traffic. The remaining 250 account for only 3 percent, he said.

The nation may need to make tough decisions to focus on serving regions rather than particular cities, Swelbar and Boyd said.

Boyd, while criticizing the federal "essential air services" program that subsidizes service to many small communities, said it is vital to areas such as western Kansas, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and Montana, where there are no busy airports that otherwise would attract profitable service.
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I'm no fan of Boyd but...at least he's finally saying something that is beneficial to labor.
 
I'm no fan of Boyd but...at least he's finally saying something that is beneficial to labor.
There's going to be 2 schools of thought on this: It's going to help, or it's going to hurt. It would help by raising wages...it would hurt by decreasing the number of jobs. Naturally everybody assumes they'll be one of the chosen few to have a job if these changes were to take effect...

As for the outlying communities that will be negatively impacted? Air travel is not an entitlement. These communities should explore cheaper modes of transportation (Bus, rail) for shuttling pax to cities that have Air Service.
 
Pay will (might) be raised on the low end side, IE first year or two of FO wages. Even regional CA pay scales really don't need to be touched to attract people. And certainly the majors won't see a increase in pay.

In short, for anyone in the game right now you won't see a pay raise.
 
Pay will (might) be raised on the low end side, IE first year or two of FO wages. Even regional CA pay scales really don't need to be touched to attract people. And certainly the majors won't see a increase in pay.

In short, for anyone in the game right now you won't see a pay raise.

Agreed. The low end will see pay bumped from 18K to maybe high 20's.
As of today no shortage of applicants for any job with aviation in the title.
 
Beat me to it.

This is an interesting development.

That, and the NTSB investigating the relationship of safety and regional 'branding' and code-sharing.

Oh these times, they are a changin'.....
 
"that's another $40 million in training: $40 million so you can get a $25,000 a year job and get based in Newark?

? I don't plan to spend $40 million on my training.....
 
Pay will (might) be raised on the low end side, IE first year or two of FO wages. Even regional CA pay scales really don't need to be touched to attract people. And certainly the majors won't see a increase in pay.

In short, for anyone in the game right now you won't see a pay raise.

I disagree. What happens when age 65 hits, the economy is in full swing in the opposite direction and the majors are sucking regional captains away? How will regionals hold onto them?

Just a few years ago you couldn't find guys to fill the right seats of RJ's, I think the same will happen at the majors in the next 2-3.
 
I disagree. What happens when age 65 hits, the economy is in full swing in the opposite direction and the majors are sucking regional captains away? How will regionals hold onto them?

Just a few years ago you couldn't find guys to fill the right seats of RJ's, I think the same will happen at the majors in the next 2-3.
You couldn't find guys willing to sit right seat making $18k, if they doubled the pay at the commuters guys would definitely be willing to give it a try. According to the recruiting dept at US Air, they don't think they will have any issues filling their classes, but they are worried about us filling ours.

Major pay/job security is such that they won't have any issues getting qualified people. It's the commuter level that will have the issue.
 
I disagree. What happens when age 65 hits, the economy is in full swing in the opposite direction and the majors are sucking regional captains away? How will regionals hold onto them?

Just a few years ago you couldn't find guys to fill the right seats of RJ's, I think the same will happen at the majors in the next 2-3.

They won't. Pilots move on to majors because regardess of how well regionals pay, majors pay better.

Nor would they want to, even if they could. Why have a bunch of 12 years guys on the payroll, making half again what 5 year guys make. The dirty little secret is that regionals WANT their employees to move on after a few years, to keep their costs down.
 
They won't. Pilots move on to majors because regardess of how well regionals pay, majors pay better.

Sort of.

There's a cutoff right now at the regional level, where senior captains will not try to move to a major. I can draw the line pretty easily at my company--I'd put it around 7 years of seniority (depends on base). Senior to that, guys don't want to move because they'd be potentially looking at 8-9 years at a major before they recoup the pay and QOL they would lose in the move. If you've got a wife and kids, hold holidays off, and make 80-100k a year, it makes it very difficult to make an uncertain move that will have you at a way worse QOL potentially for years.

Is it a good idea to stay at a regional? Who knows. We had super-senior guys who went to United in 2007 who obviously are probably regretting their decision. There's so much uncertainty in the industry as a whole that it makes it a very difficult call. Personally, I'm thinking hard about bailing for a career that at least won't have me gone 15-20 days a month.
 
8-9 years? Uhhh. I would also disagree with that. My new hire roommate moved onto the Big D 3 years ago and has already surpassed me in pay and benefits and I'm on 7th yr pay as a RJ CA.

My good friend left for WN and is in his 3rd year and makes more than our 20 year Captains. i've seen his paycheck. Our company lifers will try to stretch that 2-3 year recoup number to 7-8 to make it sound like a bad decision.

As bad as all the majors are, their still by far, way better than the best regional. I jumpseated home last week and the United guy told me he gets 16% 401K contribution from UAL. Really? 16%? Last time I checked I only get 4%. If the pay was the same between here and there, that alone would get me to jump ship.

No knockin my current company, but I didn't get in this game to fly barbie jets my entire life.
 
They won't. Pilots move on to majors because regardess of how well regionals pay, majors pay better.

Absolutely an uneducated opinion.

There are guys at Mesaba that won't even take the flow to Delta, they can't afford it. If you are confused I suggest you sit down with a piece of paper and a calculator. Maybe you're confusion sets in because you think everyone is about 35 years old.

The ones that are leaving are doing so for QOL, not pay. A few openly admit Delta isn't their first choice but it's better than Pinnacle.

/side rant
Look at CO. I24 buck an hour and no health insurance for the first 6 months? Hell, Mesaba treated me better than that, and I flew a Saab. If someone in the fam gets seriously sick for the first 6 months does it really matter how much you make year 3?
/end side rant
 
I've never heard an airline pilot wannabe say "I just wanna fly with a regional my entire career." Yes, some stay, but they are the ones that either never had the opportunity, or because the opportunity cost was too high.
 
:rotfl:

At least you guys have optimism.

Why is this funny?

It's a start. A couple of years ago, the general attitude in the world was that nobody (in the public OR the press) would give a damn about the situation with airline pilots at any level.

I don't think anybody thinks it will rain mana from heaven, but every bit of this is leverage and negotiating capitol as pilot groups move forward into contract negotiations.

Not to mention every pilot that starts earning their first rating with less of an illusion about how the industry really works and what the price of entry should be. All of this equates to a more livable reality for professional pilots in the long run.
 
I've never heard an airline pilot wannabe say "I just wanna fly with a regional my entire career." Yes, some stay, but they are the ones that either never had the opportunity, or because the opportunity cost was too high.

For some that's true, but the fact remains that senior CAs staying at a regional are not isolated incidents. One thing you learn real quick in this industry is how to adapt your career plan and goals. We've got a whole slew of guys here that will only leave if FedEx calls. Why? They live in MEM, most have their whole lives, and they don't want to commute. I know several that can't afford the pay cut for several years because they've gotten in over their heads. Some just like being a big fish in a small pond. Once you're looking at $80-100k a year, weekends off and a decent number of days in the month off, it starts to get very difficult to give that up in exchange for $30k less, Tues/Wed off and reserve for a couple of years. There's a darn good reason that even when movement starts again, if I get stuck at Pinnacle, I still won't be off reserve in MEM for a while.

I can even point you to someone on this very forum that was an "airline pilot wannabe" that went to his current regional knowing he probably wouldn't go to a major. In fact, that's the reason he went to one of the "better" regionals despite the fact he knew upgrade was gonna be close to 7 years.
 
Why is this funny?

It's a start. A couple of years ago, the general attitude in the world was that nobody (in the public OR the press) would give a damn about the situation with airline pilots at any level.

I don't think anybody thinks it will rain mana from heaven, but every bit of this is leverage and negotiating capitol as pilot groups move forward into contract negotiations.

Not to mention every pilot that starts earning their first rating with less of an illusion about how the industry really works and what the price of entry should be. All of this equates to a more livable reality for professional pilots in the long run.

I just don't get why everybody seems so up in arms about low pilot pay when there are pilots taking these low paying "earn your keep" jobs every day.

The problem isn't in the industry, it is with all the fresh pilots who really want to fly a jeeeettt! If these guys would realize what they are worth they'd laugh at these job offers and demand a higher pay.

If you were really concerned about this issue you'd be chasing around everybody who turns in an app at the low paying airlines.
 
Just from casual discussion - most of the guys hired at ASA between 98-01, and obviously those hired well before 1998 - many of them are staying at ASA until they retire...unless they escape to overseas companies. They're not interested in domestic 121 - even frieght. They are largely, 10 year Captains on the 700/900 with a few on the 200 enjoying a fairly nice schedule and making decent money.

Is it for me? No, but for many reasons.

But I can understand why they are staying. 9/11 crushed many of their career expectations, and are quite happy staying at a "better" regional until they retire.
 
I just don't get why everybody seems so up in arms about low pilot pay when there are pilots taking these low paying "earn your keep" jobs every day.

The problem isn't in the industry, it is with all the fresh pilots who really want to fly a jeeeettt! If these guys would realize what they are worth they'd laugh at these job offers and demand a higher pay.

If you were really concerned about this issue you'd be chasing around everybody who turns in an app at the low paying airlines.

The banks are taking care of most of this. By no longer lending to a lot of programs, the potential student base for a lot of high-dollar puppy mills is tapering off. In time, that means less 'fresh meat for the grinder' at bottom-dollar regionals. As attrition, retirement, and flow take their tolls on better jobs in the majors, corporate, and freight worlds, movement from the regionals will increase. Eventually the feed in the pipe will lose impetus, the pressure switch will trip, and things will stabilize.

Will anybody get rich in the right seat of a regional airplane? Not a chance. But the days of overly-indebted newhires clamoring for anything that might help them make a debt payment are over.
 
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