Airline pay and Obama

I certainly won't. I'm done with him. As Surreal has pointed out multiple times now, Skydog has no vested interest in any of this. He isn't an air line pilot. He hasn't been for a while. He should stick to dealing with issues in whatever profession he's in now. As for this profession, he's completely clueless.

You sir, on the other hand, don't get off so easily. You and I have agreed on, well, nothing since the word go. But I fail to see how my status as a pilot or non-pilot has anything to do with this. I am talking about principles of business, labor, and capitalism. Tell my why my views are wrong. Talking about issues is pointless, because issues come and go. Instead, I prefer to discuss ideology, which is what governs how a person deals with issues. So tell me why my ideas are wrong, and Obama's are right. Make a convincing argument.
 
The problem with battling ideology and not speaking from a platform of experience is that it's a solely academic discussion.

My half thought-out example. Women's issues.

You can have scholars representing all sides of the discussion on women's issues, but if we're all men, the discussion is purely academic and an exercise in navel contemplation.

Like I'd never, ever ever ever debate Kristie on what it's like to have PMS. I can look it up in a book, describe it, wikipedia and say "It's not that big of a deal, just take a Midol because it because it's shown to relieve all of the top five maladies associated with PMS." We all know where that would get us.

Unless you truly want to understand how important some issues are to unionized labor in the airline business, there's no way to convince you otherwise. I used to try back in the day, but ehh, I've got to leave that to the next generation with a little more energy.
 
Its not the actual labor laws, because they would have to follow labor laws. However because of the weak dollar, they can afford to pay much less than what American carriers have to pay. And goes the other way, if an American airline opened up a hub in say Europe, they would have to pay much higher wages than they pay over here just for people to survive. Government doesn't control pilot pay, the company does.

The European carrier already has an advantage, and can use that advantage to drive prices down. Essentially knocking out American run airlines.

There ya go. Lufthansa opens a DTW base and pays their people in Euros. Well, they're already at a 50% advantage to everyone else flying out of DTW, and they're just getting paid.

Look what happened to the FedEx Paris base. They couldn't get enough people to bid it b/c they were paying them in dollars rather than Euros. The exchange rate alone means you're taking a paycut.
 
Cabotage is no problem as long as: 1) foreign carriers are required to conform to the same laws as American carriers when operating in this country, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
How would safely operating an aircraft over the American publics heads (I’m taking it that is what you mean here) have any effect on the profitability of foreign airlines. That is the bare minimum for any airline regardless of pay, work rules, retirement bennies etc. <o:p></o:p>
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2) American carriers are given the same opportunity in other countries. It has to be reciprocal. <o:p></o:p>
Yeah lets see that happen. <o:p></o:p>
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If it's competition you're afraid of, then I don't know what to tell you. Competition is the american economy and way of life. It brings out the best in everything, for the benefit of everybody. <o:p></o:p>
Tell that to the American manufacturing middle class right now. How many foreclosures and unemployed workers out there right now? I’m from the Michigan southeast and I can tell you foreign competition is NOT GOOD for the American way of life. Unless you want literally whole neighborhoods of empty houses (oh wait, too late), homeless, starving, crime infested communities of unemployed citizens than competition and globalization is not good for Americans. America is one the way wrong end of globalization. <o:p></o:p>
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Sure it may be good for some like the Chinease farmers. But this world (and its resources) are limited and I don’t want to lower my living standards to that of those Chinese farmers (which is on its way with globalization). If that means Chinese citizens have to work the rice paddy’s for the rest of existence than I’m fine with that (insensitive, I know but I’m over it).
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If American labor law is so much better than the aforementioned Irish labor law, how long do you think it will be before those Irish employees start clamoring for law American style (a little 70's tv lingo there). Either that, or they'll decide they don't want to work for companies that don't have American business practices.<o:p></o:p>
Money (along with workrules, retirements, bennies etc) flow to the lowest bidder. Look at the regional industry right now.

Airline labor enjoys an advantage that most workers don't. Effectively, they cannot be replaced, for three reasons: 1) pilots and mechanics are highly trained and skilled workers. It's not like the employer can just go out and hire someone of the street to replace them
(if you say so. How about the NWA mechanics strike). 2) The legally sanctioned training requirements are such that replacments can only be hired and trained a few at a time. Trying to replace 1000 employees two dozen at a time would take a lot longer than any company could likely survive. 3) ALPA and the other unions have been successful at seizing the moral high ground in labor disputes. It's doubtful that an airline could recruit anywhere near the numbers of people they would need in the time they would have. All this means that a strike of any length would likely kill the company. If McCain-Lott prevents a strike, then I see that as leveling the playing field.<o:p></o:p>
How can you be a true capitalist if you think an act of government should be allowed to play a hand like this in business? It’s called supply and demand (very fundamental in capitalism). If there is a limited supply of something (like pilots like you suggest) and a strong demand (the company needs them to work for them or they go out of business) then the business needs to pay what it is worth (salaries). If the company pays too much and goes out of business than the pilots suffer as well as the owners. <o:p></o:p>
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What is not a part of the American way of life (or shouldn’t be anyway) is threatening jail sentences for people who wish to not work for the price they have been offered (collectively).

Why should the law allow employees to destroy a company? <o:p></o:p>

Why should the law make employees work for what they don’t want to work for? Its not just employees who destroy a company dude. <o:p></o:p>
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Employees are not risk takers. They show up, put in a day's work, and at the end of the day, get paid. If the company didn't make any money that day, they still get paid. They lose nothing. Contrast that with the owner, who goes home with nothing, or even less than what he started with.<o:p></o:p>
An employee is a risk taker. They risk the owner running a company into the ground and then losing everything from pay to medical bennies to retirement. They risk the time, energy, and education of their whole lives to come work for the company’s owners. Also remember they don’t necessarily reap the same rewards of the owner either.

There is also a larger concern. There has to be an incentive to take a risk. Just as employees want the security of a paycheck, the owner/investor wants the rewards of his risk taking. If there is no reward, then there is no incentive to take risk, hence no reason to start a business. That doesn't create jobs.<o:p></o:p>

There are still plenty of people who take the risks to make a successful business. There should also be an incentive for the front line workers to enjoy some of the success of the owners- maybe not necessarily as much as the owner but these days its way out of line compared the past. The result-very very few being very successful while the vast majority of our society cant make the mortgage payments which in turn lowers spending and begins the vicious cycle that we are now in (and begins the degradation of American communities-see reference above about SE Michigan).

Why is arbitration something to be feared? <o:p></o:p>

Because its very biased one way or another. Like a capitalist should say, let the market work it out. <o:p></o:p>
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If employees are truly worth the wages they are asking, the arbitrator will understand that and decide appropriately. <o:p></o:p>
Yeah right.<o:p></o:p>
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He has to. If he returns a wage too low, than the employees will go elsewhere. How does that help the employer? If he returns a wage too high, the company is at a competitive disadvantage and will likely go out of business. How does that help the employer or the employee?<o:p></o:p>
It shouldn’t be left up to any arbitrator. <o:p></o:p>
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As I see it, Obama is the one who is going to level the playing field.
 
Obama=Democrat=Good for Union workers.

It's general, broad, and won't happen immediately, but it's basically true. There's a reason NATCA is so quick to endorse any democratic candidate.
 
Obama won't make airline pay any higher but the key is he won't stop airline employees from negotiating like Bush Jr has. Management has no reason to negotiate in good faith when they realize all that labor can do is pout and be sad. It will still be up to us to pull our profession up ourselves, but at least we won't be kneecapped by the government when we try.
 
Correct. He can't wave a magic wand, but can help promote a pro-labor environment with the NLRB and other pro labor legislation.
 
I hate it when people mix quotes with their responses. Makes it very difficult to respond.

dbrault17:

I don't care if foreign carriers make a profit or not. I just want them to conform to the same safety standards that American carriers do, for the safety of the American consumer. Just as we have to do when we fly overseas. I think we'd both agree that American carriers are the safest in the world because of our safety rules

Cabotage shouldn't happen unless American carriers have equal access to foreign markets. And any carrier granted cabotage rights need to be completely independant (i.e not state supported). So rest easy, it seems unlikely that cabotage will happen anytime soon.

The american manufacturing middle class is the way it is precisely because american manufacturing couldn't compete for the average american middle class dollar. I've purchased one new car in my life, from a Japanese auto maker. I looked at American automakers, but on average a comparable car was several thousand dollars more than the one I ended up purchasing. I couldn't afford the American model.

You mentioned the NWA AMFA strike. How about UAL ALPA 1985? Eastern IAM 1989? AMR AFA 1993? NWA ALPA 1998? Comair ALPA 2001? It seems pretty obvious that labor has the advantage in labor disputes.

Giving it further thought, I concede your point about McCain-Lott. That is not government's role. On the other hand, it still is not right that government should enable the destruction of a company by its employees. Perhaps that is what the PEB is meant to prevent.

Your point about american workers being threatend with jail? What are you talking about? No one goes to jail because they choose not to work for a given price. No one makes an employee go to work if they don't want to. They're not indentured servants or slaves. They can quit anytime they want.

An employee is NOT a risk taker. By risk I mean investing money in a venture. Employees show up, do their job, and get paid. If the company doesn't make money, they still get paid. If the company shuts down, that employee still gets to keep every dollar he got paid for every minute he was on the job. An employee gets his salary regardless of the outcome of the work he performs. An owner/investor does not see a single dime until all the bills are paid, every employee has been compensated, and the company has shown a profit. If the company does not make it, then the worst that happens is that the employee has to find another job. Having to find another job is not risk. Losing all your money on a venture is. That's what happens to the owner/investor. So tell me again how a paid employee risks anything?

There are still plenty of people who take risks to make a successful business...now. But how many do you think there will be if our government enacts all of these "pro-labor" initiatives. If government legislation reduces the chance for profitability, and removes the risk/reward incentive, who do you think people will take the risk and start a business? If I know government legislation is likely going to prevent my business from succeeding, do you REALLY think I am still going to take a risk and start a business? Would you?

If front line workers want to share in the reward, then they need to be willing to share the risk. You hear all about employees getting profit sharing, but I never hear any employee giving money back to an employer in the event of financial loss. I do not consider salary concessions as giving back to the employer. The money is still flowing from employer to employee, just a little less. And that can be stopped at any time by the employee. When you get right down to basics, a profit is the owner's "paycheck." Now the employees, who already got paid for their labors, want to take the owner's paycheck on top of their own? Doesnt seem right to me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against profit sharing. It's probably a smart business practice. But that's for the employer to decide, not for the employee to demand.

The bottom line for me is that I think Obama's "pro-labor" policies will, in the long run, hurt labor (and everyone) far more than it helps them. Because at the end of the day, it is the entrepenuer that creates jobs and wealth, not the government.
 
Cabotage is a very bad thing for an industry like the US airlines. The US is one of the largest countries in the world, the only way we really have of traversing it is highways (good for short to medium haul, bad for long haul) and Airplanes. As such the airline industry is vital to the American economy. It would be very bad form to let a foreign power control what is essentially our only form medium to long haul transport around the country.

Imagine if Honda or Toyota created all the automobiles on the eve of WWII. We wouldn't have been able to re-tool factories and start creating tanks and bombers. Get rid of the domestic airlines and who is going to be mobilized to carry troops and supplies for a major war? Now lets say the Saudi's start running a losing model domestic Airline in the United States. They drive out all the Domestic competition. Then one day they get mad because we won't buy their oil at a certain price, or we don't require women to wear socks with their sandals thus offending Allah. They decide to stop servicing the domestic air market until we meet their demands, and we'd have no way of saying no.

I hate to be an obnoxious flag waver but cabotage is essentially about National and Domestic security. The domestic air system is too vital to this country to leave to the powers of the "Free" market.
 
Liberals in power means less money in your pocket. Look at history... Higher taxes...

Delta 767 captain during Clinton years: $240,000 and about $3,000,000 in retirement

Delta 767 captain during Bush years: $160,000 and no retirement
 
Screw it, I had a nice long diatribe written that thoroughly put this nutbar in his place. But, if you don't have anything nice to say...
 
Liberals in power means less money in your pocket. Look at history... Higher taxes...

You one of those people who make far less than 250,000 (married) or 200,000 (single) that are going to defend the tax cuts for the uber-rich?

This country is absolutely amazing. The types of things the ignorant will fall for leave me speechless.
 
Fact: Delta took a 47% paycut under the Bush admin. Ask around about that Bush appointed BK judge and her opinions of labor and pilots.

Why did Delta Take a paycut?

Why did they go into Bankruptcy?
 
Well if you believe in income redistribution, Obama is your man. I really do not get why you want Obama. You feel as if you will make more money with him, but at the same time you will also be in the group of people who he is going to tax more. You all think he is only going to tax those that make more than 250,000 a year. Do you honestly believe Clinton had anything to do with airline captain pay, or any president for that matter??
It is really not so much Obama as it is Obama + House of Reps + Congress. The tax and spend liberals have control now, they will get what they want.
Another thing, trickle down economics work. Just wait til your employers are taxed more, forced to pay more benefits. They will find a way to take that out of your pocket and the passengers. The costs simply get spread around and everyone ends up spending more money.
And one last thing, ask NOT what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country! I am simply amazed a democrat of all people said that...
Collectively, this country has become a nation of people who expect to be handed things. Maybe what we need is another great depression to set everyone back in their place. We all talk about the "Greatest Generation." You know what made them the greatest? The great depression.
You guys sound like a bunch of communists.
 
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