Air Safety Flight Academy or ATP?

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Keep in mind there are more schools than ATP to instruct after you're done.

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This is true but as I'm sure that your aware most places don't like to hire instructors that didn't train at their school!
Also I have heard due to the fast pace of ATP that many school/FBO's don't like to hire ATP grads.
Becuase the ATP program is an accelerated program. I.E. they have the rating but lack the proper skils needed to be good instructors

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Just make sure they don't just train you to pass one DE's checkride.

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The owner at Air Safety (whom I spoke with) said they do exactly that cookie cutter checkrides.
Now I'm well aware that he wants me to drop my money at his place so he is gonna say whatever to sway me to his side.

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At my old school the rental price on the Cirrus was MORE than the twin.

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They quoted me a rate of $137.00 an hour

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Don't be swayed by fancy equipment. You still have to learn all the items in the PTS no matter what plane you fly, so you might as well save some hurt on the bank account.

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I got hired at an FBO shortly after I got done with ATP. There are places out there, that will hire you w/o training at their school. Just have to be flexible on where you'll go (which, btw, even at this early stage in my career, I'm finding that to be the name of the game in flying), and look outside your hometown.

Coincidentally, about 1 month after I signed a lease here, and had a good student base built up, ATP called me to come instruct for them. I hadn't even updated my resume with them in 6 months, so they may be having a problem getting enough instructors, with the regionals hiring like they are.

Any place that won't even interview you, after seeing ATP on your resume, is probably not a good place to work anyways. Just because you go to ATP does not mean you don't have the skills to be a good instructor, and a good employer should judge that after talking to you, not just on where you trained.

I've said this time and again about ATP, and I'm going to add it again here. Yes, they train to checkrides. They leave it up to YOU to take responsibility for what you need to know beyond that. Just because they don't spoon-feed you every little thing about flying, does not mean the training is bad. The way I see it, the people who don't put in the extra time and effort on their own, somewhere along the way will run into a wall. That's not ATP's fault, it's the student who doesn't take responsibility for his own future and career. They do what they say, they get you the tickets in 90 days, it's up to YOU to be prepared to use those certs in a job somewhere. I stand by them wholeheartedly because they do exactly what they say, for the price they advertise and no more.

And, I forgot to add..........After ATP, I probably have enough multi hrs already to move on after I get my TT up there, w/o ever even having a twin at my school to instruct in. Granted, I'd like to do some multi-instructing to stay current, but I see other guys here doing everything in their power to even get an hr of multi to put in the multi column. That gave me a little more flexibility in job options, as I didn't have to find a school with a multi (let alone being at a school with a multi, and hoping I'm senior enough to get the multi students, etc).
 
"They leave it up to YOU to take responsibility for what you need to know beyond that. Just because they don't spoon-feed you every little thing about flying, does not mean the training is bad. The way I see it, the people who don't put in the extra time and effort on their own, somewhere along the way will run into a wall. That's not ATP's fault, it's the student who doesn't take responsibility for his own future and career."

YEAH. I agree wholeheartedly. I get so sick of hearing people say they feel certain big academies are superior because of extra training and formal ground classes. To each his own, I guess. Some people need to be spoon feed, as you put it, and some don't. Those who don't are gonna save a lot of time and money.
 
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Some people need to be spoon feed, as you put it, and some don't. Those who don't are gonna save a lot of time and money.

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That is THE key!!!!!!!!!!!

For the percentage out there, having to be spoon fed isn't bad at all.
 
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Bingo. Just to add to that, there are some safety concerns I have about the Cirrus.
1. No manual trim. If you have a runaway trim condition, you have to recognize the malfunction, locate the breaker, pull it, and even then the trim is stuck at whatever position it reached by the time the breaker is pulled.
2. You can pretty much assume that the Cirrus will not recover from a spin. They tell you not to "waste time" attempting to recover and to just pulls the CAPS chute. So maybe the thing will fire, and maybe it will wrap around a wing or the tail.
3. Composite burns and noone really knows how composite parts behave over time.

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I have never flown a Cirrus but these are not really valid reasons to avoid an aircraft.
1. There are several jets that have no manual trim. They have a backup system, but it is not impossible to end up in a situation with no trim. I am suprised the Cirrus does not have a trim interrupt/autopilot disconnect button on the side stick. Most other aircraft have this, I would be interested to know if the Cirrus really lacks this feature.
2. Any multi engine aircraft you fly was not certified to recover from a spin and spin testing is not required for multi engined aircraft. Would you avoid flying a Seminole for this reason?
3. Aluminum will also burn if you get it hot enough, and even if this is not common, will quickly weaken and fail in a fire. I really don't see how an aluminum aircraft is any better off in a fire than a composite aircraft. I have also not heard of any composite aircraft falling out of the sky. The Beech Starship has been flying for many years and I am not aware of any airframe failures. There has also been many composite experimental aircraft built over the years.

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Got one more for ya: the avionics screens. You lose your primary screen, it's gone and you're on backup instruments. There's no way to switch the displays.

[/ QUOTE ]So what? In most aircraft if you lose your vacuum pump you lose your AI and DG. In a Cirrus if you lose the main screen, you end up using the same AI, airspeed indicator and altimeter you are used to. You can easily navigate using the remaining screen and GPS units.

One thing I will say is that if you do not have a good flight director, I think it is much easier to hand fly on traditional round gauges. Using vertical tapes for altitude and airspeed can be more difficult. You cannot just glance at the display, you have to actually look at the numbers. On traditional instruments you can just glance at them and tell what is going on by the relative needle position. With tape displays you have to set a 'bug' on the altitude or airspeed you want to maintain to do this.

I will agree that the Cirrus is probably not a good primary training aircraft. You are better off in a traditional aircraft. If you learn in the typical trainer, you can focus on just learning how to fly without all the distractions of the complicated avionics. Normal trainers are also much more forgiving since they are slower and have more drag. I also have mixed emotions about getting the instrument rating in an aircraft like this. I think you are better off being able to fly instruments without a giant moving map, but most of my students all had GNS430's for their instrument rating, so it probably does not matter. Now that even a 172 or a Warrior can be ordered with a glass cockpit, the simple trainer will gradually become extinct. But even with the overly complex avionics, these aircraft have handling qualities that make them more suitable as a primary trainer.
 
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So what? In most aircraft if you lose your vacuum pump you lose your AI and DG. In a Cirrus if you lose the main screen, you end up using the same AI, airspeed indicator and altimeter you are used to. You can easily navigate using the remaining screen and GPS units.

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Check out where the backups are on the panel. I wouldn't want to go partial panel and try to transition to visual flight where they are. Vertigo is a very real possibilty. Now, I like where the backups are on the G1000, right at the top of the glareshield.
 
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Dallas period...ugh

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OK i've got to admit the summer is hot but its good to sweat your ass off every once in a while.

No mountains. No oceans, but a hell of alot of airports,pilots,planes and flyin'

By far the best food in the country as long as your not a vegetarian.

And no question without a doubt the best lookin women in the country live in the DFW area.

later ya'll
spin2.gif
 
Heh, he's getting me excited about coming down now. Dallas in the summer can't be any worse than Orlando during the summer. Maybe about the same, but not worse.....
 
ATP was always my first choice. I will visit both schools but I think that I will attend ATP not only because of the the bundle of multi-time gained flying in only a multi-engine aircraft but because it sounds to me like a better training environment and a better trainer aircraft then the Cirrus.
My main concern is find a instructor job after my training is comples with ATP! Preferably I would like to instruct for ATP!

-Matthew
 
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ATP was always my first choice.

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Then there is always my second choice. Glendale aviation. They are a traditional FBO!
Again many choices to choose from and I will check them all out to make the best informed decsion possible!

-Matthew
 
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I will visit both schools but I think that I will attend ATP not only because of the the bundle of multi-time gained flying in only a multi-engine aircraft but because it sounds to me like a better training environment and a better trainer aircraft then the Cirrus.

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The only problem I have with ATP and their multi stuff is they push it like ME time is the second coming. Honestly, it really doesn't matter if you get your IR in a Seminole or a 172. If someone wants to burn the extra $$$, then that's their perogative (apologies to Bobby Brown). The fact of the matter is that when you're done with ATP's program, you're still going to be shy of the TT requirements and need a job somewhere else. To me, it would kinda suck to hear "we'd love to hire you as an instructor, but you don't have enough single engine time for us." I'd rather save the money while training and buy a block of ME time down the road to get the ME mins.
 
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ATP was always my first choice.

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Then there is always my second choice. Glendale aviation. They are a traditional FBO!
Again many choices to choose from and I will check them all out to make the best informed decsion possible!

-Matthew

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Have you checked out Arizona Flight Works at SDL airport? I have rented a few planes there and it seems like a decent FBO.

I know a couple of people that left Pan Am thinking the grass would be greener at ATP at Willie, only to return a few weeks later very dissappointed with their experience at ATP.

Just my .02..
 
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The fact of the matter is that when you're done with ATP's program, you're still going to be shy of the TT requirements and need a job somewhere else. To me, it would kinda suck to hear "we'd love to hire you as an instructor, but you don't have enough single engine time for us."

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They said since I already hold my PPL I would have 250-300 tt and 140-150 hours of multi-engine time. At the time of completion of the program. In addition to multi-engine time you do get a single engine comm. rating.

-Matthew
 
Website says 200 hours and 190 ME. Even then, I still think it's too much for what you get. IMO, close to $40K is too much for 300 TT, even if it has 150 ME. Think of it this way, roughly 75 hours (according to ATP's site) are XC, which means you're splitting time with someone. Thing is, you both still have to be paying full price to hit that price. How much FTD time is there in the program? I know that was an issue before, and on the site it lists 50 hours, which is probably used to get your commercial. Like I said earlier, I'd rather just buy the block time later on if I need it. It's cheaper that way. ATP is a great program, and it works for a lot of people. I just think there are cheaper ways out there to get the same results.
 
There are definately cheaper ways to get all your ratings than to go to ATP. However, as long as you like the idea of self-study and can deal with a little ambiguity, you'll be happy with ATP.
 
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There are definately cheaper ways to get all your ratings than to go to ATP. However, as long as you like the idea of self-study and can deal with a little ambiguity, you'll be happy with ATP.

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I know a couple of people that left Pan Am thinking the grass would be greener at ATP at Willie, only to return a few weeks later very dissappointed with their experience at ATP.

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I have had several discussions with actual instructors/graduates from the ATP Professional Pilot program on there 800-ALL-ATPS phone line.
I have my reservations about the program. Most notably with the self study portion.
But I think that if I'm flying five days a week straight I think that I will be able to retain the knowledge via hands on experience.
Everyone has made mention of cheaper ways of getting ones ratings....care to share?
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However, as long as you like the idea of self-study and can deal with a little ambiguity, you'll be happy with ATP.

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Deal with ambiguity? Care to digress?

-Matthew
 
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Website says 200 hours and 190 ME. Even then, I still think it's too much for what you get. IMO, close to $40K is too much for 300 TT, even if it has 150 ME.

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I have my PPL and 150 hrs. which is why they quoted me that I'd have 300-350 when the program is completed!

-Matthew
 
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Everyone has made mention of cheaper ways of getting ones ratings....care to share?

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The flight school I earned my PPL at had a program for $19995 which took you from 0 hours to a CFII.
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Deal with ambiguity?

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ATP will set you up with a plan to get your ratings in the advertised 90 days, however all of the specifics are up to the company. Training could be delayed for a number of days because other students have checkrides that are sooner than yours. On your cross-country portion, you could be sitting in Bowling Green, KY for a few days because they need the airplane you flew in for checkrides. Another JC'er, lnewby, flew with me down to Ft. Lauderdale and sat around for 4 days w/o flying while I did my MEI and CFII. Those types of ambiguities.
 
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