NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Well do what I did and drop out and become a controller and make bank
Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule
- Thread starter killbilly
- Start date
Well do what I did and drop out and become a controller and make bank
I left a six figure job, with weekends and holidays off for this crap. But I'm still happier doing this, waaaayyy happier.
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
Not trying to be a smart ass.....pancakes, waffels and eggs are inexpensive, as is all kinds of Campbells and Progresso soups, sandwiches, tuna, cottage cheese with fruit, grilled cheese sandwiches, meatloaf, chili, and pasta and sauce. Kids love that stuff too. Buy chicken and fish when it's on sale- if you can buy extra and freeze it, frozen veggies and ditto extra lean hamburger on sale. It's a pain but try to buy things on sale and with coupons and plan out some meals in advance. We were pretty poor when I had my first two kids, so I understand. Check out making some inexpensive stews and casseroles that you can eat the leftovers of. Canned refried beans, rice, hamburger, tortillas, cheese with some salsa and make burritos. Sometimes we get in a rut. Variety really helps and kids are flexible, thankfully. Stater Brothers is way less expensive than Vons, Ralphs and Albertsons to shop at. What really matters is the time you get to spend with them anyways. Those are the memories that matter and that they will remember. Not being able to eat steaks or eat out all the time won't matter.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Ok, this is going to come out a bit harsh, and I don't mean it that way. I have the highest respect for our military guys.
That said....
I've met and talking with guys who are "honchos" in the military command chain, as well as upper education type places who are in charge of making decisions about this stuff, and they are comically, blindingly oblivious to:
1) The civilian "pipeline"
2) What motivates people to go from A to B
3) Basic economics
I mean the kind of oblivious-ness (is that word, even?) that you'll be talking to someone who you think is on the same level, but you find out they're not, so you dial it down to EZ Mode, and after a bit, you realize they're not even getting THAT. I've talked to people IN the civilian world that are just as clueless, because someone put them in that position because they made the assumption that square peg knowledge fits in round holes.
I am absolutely, positively sure they are "aces" at whatever it is they do, but I would take anything, and I mean ANYTHING, said outside that band of expertise as simple sidewalk chit-chat with some random dude on the street.
Military "ab-initio" DOES NOT EQUAL civilian "ab-initio" by several orders of exponential magnitude.
We've got a lot of people out there talking like they know HTF2P, but they don't.
Richman
That said....
I've met and talking with guys who are "honchos" in the military command chain, as well as upper education type places who are in charge of making decisions about this stuff, and they are comically, blindingly oblivious to:
1) The civilian "pipeline"
2) What motivates people to go from A to B
3) Basic economics
I mean the kind of oblivious-ness (is that word, even?) that you'll be talking to someone who you think is on the same level, but you find out they're not, so you dial it down to EZ Mode, and after a bit, you realize they're not even getting THAT. I've talked to people IN the civilian world that are just as clueless, because someone put them in that position because they made the assumption that square peg knowledge fits in round holes.
I am absolutely, positively sure they are "aces" at whatever it is they do, but I would take anything, and I mean ANYTHING, said outside that band of expertise as simple sidewalk chit-chat with some random dude on the street.
Military "ab-initio" DOES NOT EQUAL civilian "ab-initio" by several orders of exponential magnitude.
We've got a lot of people out there talking like they know HTF2P, but they don't.
Richman
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
Because military pilots are superior in every possible way!! You didn't know that??
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I've lost count of how many friends have left the uniform to go VFR direct to the majors or FEDEX. Somehow they made it work, without the "civilian ab-initio". I think you have been talking to the wrong people…….particularly those who tell you they are/were "honchos".
The big difference is, most civilians, their primary job is to fly a plane. Pretty much taking it from A to B. Not too difficult generally speaking.
Most military, flying is a secondary function. Its an assumed that you can do it. Because employing that aircraft as the weapons system its designed to be, and all the many, many skill sets that go into doing that and doing it correctly, is what separates the average civvie pilot from the average mil pilot. And is why while many people can fly a plane, not all can fly tactical planes, or even helos for that matter.
That ILS to mins thats a big part of a civvie pilot's day....probably the most exciting part of; that same thing is just another something that needs to be accomplished in order to get the truly important things done.
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
I just had a conversation with a Navy pilot who was my division officer back in 2011. He was complaining about pay and qol during his first year at a major. After I shared with him that I have not made a penny more than food stamp wages in the last four years and have had to invest a great amount into the "normalities" of the life style as well, he quickly realized he could have had it worse.
The reason most guys are oblivious is because they were smart in their younger years, they went to the academies and college and passed the stringent standards needed to be met in order to become officers first then military pilots. I have nothing against that, although 80 percent of the pilots I knew in the Navy were cocky and at times unapproachable as an "enlisted puke". I still have respect for what they went through in order to skip the "slums" of the industry. I just hope they are more humble outside of their military careers to be honest..
To me, regional pilots and mainline pilots aren't very different at all. Apart from number of pax onboard, they really do the same job and with the same responsibilities. Which is why I've always thought regional pay shouldn't be as low as it once was and in many cases, still is. All because of how they're structured and such.
The average mil guy just has far more to do, oftentimes by oneself, where flying is secondary. Unlike airline guys. Not so much any kind of superiority thing, but the skill sets required, are much more in number on the average mil side. Thats why in the old days of UPT, while everyone flew the same jets for primary and advanced, not everyone earned a fighter/attack/reconnaissance qual tag to be eligible for a tactical jet assignment at graduation.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Try being at an F-22 base where their motto was literally "The best pilots in the world." Ah good ole Checkertails =)
Didn't think you were being a smart ass. My comments were mostly tongue in cheek. Eating on a tight budget is a challenge. But it's not impossible. Plus, I enjoy cooking, while helping with homework, and building puzzles and feeding the dog during laundry. The life of a single father is an adventure!
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
I'm in the unique position of flying with, and having to evaluate both civilian and military new hire pilots. Overall, there is not much difference in flying ability between the two. Both are very good at aircraft control at this level. The major differences tend to be a function of their previous environment.
Military pilots are more disiplined in checklist usage and more "rigid" in their thought process, though, I feel this is due to their lack of experience in the airline environment. This is evident in the fact that it takes them longer to adjust to the flow or pace of airline ops. They tend to lag behind their civilian counterparts in multi crew concepts.
Civilian pilots, due to prior experience in the environment, handle the ops fine, however tend to take a bit longer in adapting to specific company procedures/policies.
Overall, by about 200 hours at the company, they are almost indistinguishable from each other. Both excel at the job, and I've yet to fly with one that I had to rate down. Haven't met a one that it wasn't fun to fly with, even the one who had a tendency to want to compare procedures to his last company.
For the record, I was a military officer with all civilian flying experience, so I've experienced both sides of the coin.
Military pilots are more disiplined in checklist usage and more "rigid" in their thought process, though, I feel this is due to their lack of experience in the airline environment. This is evident in the fact that it takes them longer to adjust to the flow or pace of airline ops. They tend to lag behind their civilian counterparts in multi crew concepts.
Civilian pilots, due to prior experience in the environment, handle the ops fine, however tend to take a bit longer in adapting to specific company procedures/policies.
Overall, by about 200 hours at the company, they are almost indistinguishable from each other. Both excel at the job, and I've yet to fly with one that I had to rate down. Haven't met a one that it wasn't fun to fly with, even the one who had a tendency to want to compare procedures to his last company.
For the record, I was a military officer with all civilian flying experience, so I've experienced both sides of the coin.
Hammertime
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I completely disagree. I have no frame of reference for the military life, but the airline world is way more than A to B. My favorite moments in the day are when the cockpit door closes, because that means that I can do what I actually enjoy doing, fly the plane. Most of my job as captain is managing an incredibly diverse team performing an incredibly complex operation. I often wryly say that my job is more Office Space than flying a plane. Most of the actual "work" (work being the not fun part of the job) I do is dealing with operational issues as they arise so that I can maintain a schedule that is timed down to the minute. A majority of the people I work with barely have a high school education, so find that I spend a lot of time defusing interpersonal conflicts, and checking others work. (You would be amazed at how hard it is to get toilet paper actually installed on the holder in the lavatory.)
FlyingAccountant
Well-Known Member
I'm in the process of doing this now. There's definitely a price on happiness and I can't spend the next 30 years doing what I'm doing now.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
We only know what we know. The majority of my time is obviously flying the Navy way, a carrier pilot. I now fly 135 and the basics of flying from Point A to B are similar but overall, the experience is much different. Much of what MikeD and Hacker is absolutely true and we almost always fall back to what we know, how we were trained. I have yet to fly with another previous former military pilot and don't have much in common with my co-pilot's. Some are very good at what they do, have been doing it for a long time but often their overall scope and ability are definitely narrow to this type of flying. The experience of the military, the flying and the leadership roles that come with it were more complex and certainly more demanding. Though dealing with a hostile 135 operations or mnx department can be an experience of its own
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I could see this being true. Learning all the automation that is standard in the airline industry would probably take some sim time to become proficient in. And while we still exercise CRM in a flight of single seat aircraft, the challenge/response checklist methodology would be new to anyone that came from that environment, other than maybe during an in flight emergency with a wingman reading (along with) you the non-boldface procedure items from the book. Anyway, point being that, if I were in 135/121 training, I would want to adopt the community standards, and initially the best way to avoid deviations back to military habit patterns, would be to follow checklists/procedures. I'd imagine the big picture thought processes related to just aviating and decision making (at least outside of airframe specific considerations) would remain relatively unchanged however.
I was kind of including that in what you do as part of basic CRM. But the general job, and the CRM involved, revolves around getting from A to B safely and efficiently to deliver your pax/cargo. Nothing at all wrong with that, just that its what the job encompasses. Im sure, as you note, that there are indeed challenges involved in just doing that.
Hammertime
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify. I have the utmost respect for military aviators and what you do. And, having flown with several military aviators, I have no doubts about your flying abilities. I just wanted to point out that we all have something that we can learn from each other. The idea that the civilian world is somehow "less than" rubs me the wrong way.