Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule

MikeD said:
Why you guys are so hot to trot to want to be in the AF is beyond me. Its alot of pain in the ass, for a little bit of nice flying time; which only gets worse with rank. I guess all the services have their own share of BS, but the AF isn't necessarily completely green grass itself. Will be happy when I hang that crap up here in awhile. :)
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Army Warrants don't do most of the "management" crap. They get paid to fly. So @Lawman and I are looking from that point of view. Funny enough I was just talking with @hook_dupin about this today. I could be a W4 in my 40s and 50s and my job would still be primarily to fly the bird. I know the AF is different but I'd be willing to put up with it to turn and burn in a Falcon or Warthog. I got to play a bit in my reserve days but it was a real "just the tip" sort of experience.
 
av8tr1 said:
Army Warrants don't do most of the "management" crap. They get paid to fly. So @Lawman and I are looking from that point of view. Funny enough I was just talking with @hook_dupin about this today. I could be a W4 in my 40s and 50s and my job would still be primarily to fly the bird. I know the AF is different but I'd be willing to put up with it to turn and burn in a Falcon or Warthog. I got to play a bit in my reserve days but it was a real "just the tip" sort of experience.
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The F-35 Thunderbolt III is the latest, replacing all that stuff. :D
 
MikeD said:
The F-35 Thunderbolt III is the latest, replacing all that stuff. :D
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Still take the Hog over that overpriced turd any day. At least with the 35 the paint isn't making pilots sick. Maybe if the 35 replaces the A10 and F16 the Army will finally get the A10 as has been rumored for 30 years now :stir:
 
av8tr1 said:
Still take the Hog over that overpriced turd any day. At least with the 35 the paint isn't making pilots sick. Maybe if the 35 replaces the A10 and F16 the Army will finally get the A10 as has been rumored for 30 years now :stir:
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The 35, while needing some improvements, actually does some good work in some revolutionary ways. The USMC certainly likes theirs.

Just loud as heck.
 
av8tr1 said:
Army Warrants don't do most of the "management" crap. They get paid to fly. So @Lawman and I are looking from that point of view. Funny enough I was just talking with @hook_dupin about this today. I could be a W4 in my 40s and 50s and my job would still be primarily to fly the bird. I know the AF is different but I'd be willing to put up with it to turn and burn in a Falcon or Warthog. I got to play a bit in my reserve days but it was a real "just the tip" sort of experience.
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I don't know where this "paid to fly" crap comes from.

Yes we fly, but 3 years in I was in my first staff job. I spent a year where I didn't even get in an aircraft. What it really means is we understaff our battalions because "we've got all these officers" who lack either the relevant training in the stuff they need to be doing or simply don't have the time because we also need to put 6-8 lines up a day and they fly 6-8 hours during deployment. I shouldn't have a CW2 who spends all his time managing property. I shouldn't have warrant officers doing aviation life support because that's not an enlisted MOS in the Army (why we should never own any tactical fixed wing right there). Warrants do plenty more than fly, and when we aren't doing that we are doing soldier stuff because the crew chiefs can't be touched (i.e. Putting up tents, emptying containers, etc).

That's why we will be fighting with our foot in a bucket any time we try and integrate. The people you need to coordinate outside the battalion are all "busy" meaning babysitting their captains or flying because their boss won't give them up. So instead we send junior/replaceable guys who don't know anything to planning conferences/LNO positions. Then whatever they do bring back we ignore even if it is in line with our own TACSOP because we don't do deliberate planning anymore, we just generate flight hours and hope it all works out.




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Lawman said:
I don't know where this "paid to fly" crap comes from.

Yes we fly, but 3 years in I was in my first staff job. I spent a year where I didn't even get in an aircraft. What it really means is we understaff our battalions because "we've got all these officers" who lack either the relevant training in the stuff they need to be doing or simply don't have the time because we also need to put 6-8 lines up a day and they fly 6-8 hours during deployment. I shouldn't have a CW2 who spends all his time managing property. I shouldn't have warrant officers doing aviation life support because that's not an enlisted MOS in the Army (why we should never own any tactical fixed wing right there). Warrants do plenty more than fly, and when we aren't doing that we are doing soldier stuff because the crew chiefs can't be touched (i.e. Putting up tents, emptying containers, etc).

That's why we will be fighting with our foot in a bucket any time we try and integrate. The people you need to coordinate outside the battalion are all "busy" meaning babysitting their captains or flying because their boss won't give them up. So instead we send junior/replaceable guys who don't know anything to planning conferences/LNO positions. Then whatever they do bring back we ignore even if it is in line with our own TACSOP because we don't do deliberate planning anymore, we just generate flight hours and hope it all works out.
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Warrants are doing command jobs now, right? If I'm not mistaken, the C-12 unit in our state (albeit with their one C-12), the guy in charge is a CW-4 or CW-5, I believe.
 
MikeD said:
Warrants are doing command jobs now, right? If I'm not mistaken, the C-12 unit in our state (albeit with their one C-12), the guy in charge is a CW-4 or CW-5, I believe.
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Oh it's more jacked up than that.

Ground side warrants have had commands at basically the O3 level for a while. Detachment commands often fall to warrants on the guard reserve side. Now with the UAS platoons we have a W1/CW2 that is in charge of as many people if not more than the other two platoons in a company/troop which is usually a O2/O3 position.

Basically the Army figured out how to make captains but only pay them 2/3 what the other services do.

And there is no career aviation incentive bonus despite the fact we are manned at about 78% across the Force.


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MikeD said:
Warrants are doing command jobs now, right? If I'm not mistaken, the C-12 unit in our state (albeit with their one C-12), the guy in charge is a CW-4 or CW-5, I believe.
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All the C-12 units went from TDA to MTOE not too long ago turning det commanders from CW5s to CPTs. However, it's pointless to send a Guard RLO to the FW course just for one assignment so I'm betting most states just keep their W5 in charge.
 
Lawman said:
Oh it's more jacked up than that.

Ground side warrants have had commands at basically the O3 level for a while. Detachment commands often fall to warrants on the guard reserve side. Now with the UAS platoons we have a W1/CW2 that is in charge of as many people if not more than the other two platoons in a company/troop which is usually a O2/O3 position.

Basically the Army figured out how to make captains but only pay them 2/3 what the other services do.

And there is no career aviation incentive bonus despite the fact we are manned at about 78% across the Force.


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What's your average line company warrant doing for flight time per year these days in garrison?
 
MikeFavinger said:
What's your average line company warrant doing for flight time per year these days in garrison?
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If he's not an IP? Minimums if they are lucky.

Which is insane given the amount of time we spend in the field these days. We simply don't have the money or time to fix the fleets we have so it's very little home station multiship training (I.E. useful time spent) and instead a lot of 4 hour flights of APART rides or PFEs with the PC flights trying to figure out something useful to do with their training flight alone and not allowed to go vfr direct to adjacent ground units for hip pocket training (must go through division G3 Air).


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Lawman said:
In the case of the Kiowa pilots it's because most of them are being kicked out simply because we do not have the means to pipeline them to new aircraft fast enough.

For me and others like me, it's to be in a service that actually understands aviation is entirely different from ground forces. We can't treat it like infantry with high cost tractors and expect it to ever meet it's full potential. The fact we send fires and Intel guys to Air units to get some experience before they go to their real job says everything about where the Army ranks fitting into the complex air fight.


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Army ATC is just as bad. Those guys spend far more time in the motor pool than they dona control tower.
 
FlyingAccountant said:
The monotony mostly. Sitting in a cubicle without windows for 45 hours/week truly is a soul smashing experience.

I always wanted to fly but convinced myself doing the conventional college thing was the better way to go. I graduated in 2008 when the economy was in the process of bottoming out and the airlines were at their worst in terms of hiring and retaining, so it looked like a good idea at the time. Fast forward almost a decade, I’m 33, and the airline industry has rebounded and I’m rapidly reaching the point where I need to either attempt this or forget about it. The idea of spending another 30 years caring about things that don’t really matter, dealing with the types of personalities this profession attracts, and working in an office environment makes me nauseous.

I realize I’m probably never going to be in the left seat of a widebody flying across the ocean, but I’ll settle for a job that I don’t loathe.
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we're in the same boat. 33, been in IT for over 10 years, and as much as I tried to not look, I still stare at airliners. So slowly I've been amassing hours and starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Almost 900 hours now, potential to move to the left seat in the King Air I SIC in at 1200, and another summer of survey this year, and I'm looking at a 2 year plan to 1500. That and figuring out how to support a family of 5 without my IT salary will be interesting as well.
 
jskibo said:
Meh, I was almost ready to jump from cube, but then I realized just how close retirement is / can be. Also can't psychology get over a six figures pay cut.

So I just dumped the idea and quit flying altogether........
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Quitter
 
ozziecat35 said:
we're in the same boat. 33, been in IT for over 10 years, and as much as I tried to not look, I still stare at airliners. So slowly I've been amassing hours and starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Almost 900 hours now, potential to move to the left seat in the King Air I SIC in at 1200, and another summer of survey this year, and I'm looking at a 2 year plan to 1500. That and figuring out how to support a family of 5 without my IT salary will be interesting as well.
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Might help if you tied a knot in the end of it and quit expanding :)
 
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