Advanced Airline Training Program

"the F/O that has 56 more hours experience with that type of aircraft or the guy who was just a flight instructor"

Believe it or not, the guy who is "JUST" a flight instructor. The fact that you say it that way shows your bias. The higher time CFI is a more well rounded, experienced, aviator. 56 hours in a sim? I know it sounds good to you but I don't see that it counts for much outside the training enviornment. Yeah, direct track guys will find initial RJ training easier since they have already seen it once (at a price). However, they have less real world experience and seasoning. That's what's important to me.

Your CFI friends who think PFT is a good idea have a case of "the grass is greener syndrome". Did you PM Badco99 yet?

Seriously, dude, I don't care what you do. I just think direct track is a bad idea and I keep saying why over and over. Do a search. Let us know how it works out for you.
 
UPS, thanks for the input again.

I am still wondering why then is it an option? Why do 4 or 5 airlines even bother taking direct trackee's? How would the industry realistically be effected without direct trackee's? And, has it been proven that direct trackee's are proven a poor resource in the cockpit (I am talking NTSB reports related to runway incursions, accidents, etc.)?
 
"I am still wondering why then is it an option?"

Cause it makes FSA money?

There is no doubt there are direct trackers in the industry. The airlines don't care what warm bodies are in their 18K a year seat, as long as they meet the min standard. My view is more about what's ideal, as I see it, than how the real world works. It's called an opinion.

Can you prove that a direct tracker is a better resource in the cockpit than a CFI? Can you prove direct trackers have good performace in the cockpit via NTSB reports?

This whole argument, in fact, this whole website is based on peoples opinions. Some people are UPS Capts and some are just getting started. Your mileage may very....
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
UPS, thanks for the input again.

I am still wondering why then is it an option? Why do 4 or 5 airlines even bother taking direct trackee's? How would the industry realistically be effected without direct trackee's? And, has it been proven that direct trackee's are proven a poor resource in the cockpit (I am talking NTSB reports related to runway incursions, accidents, etc.)?
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First off, you will see later on after you have flown more, that 56 hours is nothing. The average airline pilot gets paid for 75 hrs per month even if they don't fly at all. So you better believe that once on the line, they are going to want you to fly at least this much. So, the question you are asking is, would you rather have a 1000 hr CFI who has flown the RJ for one month, or the 250 hr wonder that has flown an RJ for two months? Before you answer the question, you should know what sim training actually consist of. It does not especially tax your leadership or decision making skills. What you do in the sim is practice the flight profiles, check list and proceedures. It is really no different than a multi instrument checkride, with an oral over aircraft systems and limitations. You could probably train a 12 year old flight sim junkie to pass the flight portion of the sim.

What we are trying to tell you is that being a CFI makes you the 'Captain' of every flight you take with a student. You are the leader. You help the student conduct a safe flight and monitor everything they do. If they get behind, you should notice this and pick up the slack. This is far different than the pilot who just got a commercial rating, who has almost no instrument time, very little cross country time, and has been safely under the wing of a CFI for much of their flight time.

Passing an airline ground school and spending some time in a sim does not correct for the lack of experience. It just means you know how to program the FMS and put the gear up and down.

As for why the airline wants students from the direct track programs, I really don't know. Some of it is due to the fact that once you are hired, you will be there a while. If someone already has over 1000 hrs of flight time when they are hired, they can upgrade faster and leave for a better job. Meanwhile you are still stuck in the right seat waiting for the turbine PIC. The other reason is that if enough people with very low time are hired, it keeps wages down. Where else are you going to go? You can't even fly single pilot IFR in a Cessna 210 for a 135 freight operator. Kind of funny, the FAA won't trust you to fly single pilot freight in a piston at 250 hours. Maybe they know something you don't? If the captain is on the ball, then everything works out ok. It might be unpleasant for them, but no metal gets bent. The problem is what if they are not on the ball. It is far easier to bully a 300 hr co-pilot into doing something stupid, than it is for them to persuade a more experienced pilot that it really is 'ok' to overlook something important. It is also far more likely that a higher time pilot will speak up if they see the captain make a mistake, than the low timer who is unsure of themselves and does not want to look stupid by asking a 'dumb question'.
 
ananoman said:
What we are trying to tell you is that being a CFI makes you the 'Captain' of every flight you take with a student. You are the leader. You help the student conduct a safe flight and monitor everything they do. If they get behind, you should notice this and pick up the slack. This is far different than the pilot who just got a commercial rating, who has almost no instrument time, very little cross country time, and has been safely under the wing of a CFI for much of their flight time.
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Its very ironic you posted this today. I acted as safety pilot today for a CFI/II/MEI with 1500 hours who had full scale horizontal deflection on an ILS approach and made more than standard rate turns. We fly together often, and I have learned much from him but I was totally shocked at his performance today (I also had no problem calling him out on his errors). I am by no means perfect and have had a full scale deflection in all axis'.
Just ironic...

I did enjoy that right seat time though, it's really making me consider instructing...but I still want to get in the airlines a.s.a.p. Thank God this isnt a decision I have to make right away.
 
DE727UPS said:
"I hear both good and bad about the direct track programs"

Besides the schools marketing, where have you heard anything good?
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You rang.....

I personally know four guys that went through. They all did extremely well...

Here is an interesting thought though. Now seriously give it a chance...

The regionals are hiring at 700/80 right now (lowest time I have seen in awhile). Would you rather have a CFI that finished their ratings at 350 hours and then instructed pre-privates for 300 hours and bought 50 hours of multi in a "time building safety pilot" program......OR......

A CIME graduate from FSA that went through the Advanced Airline Program flying LOFT procedures and instrument procedures set forth by by the hiring airline?

I would take the FSA AAP candidate in a heartbeat. remember, this is one example but it really is all to familiar with those of us who have seen instructors from small schools with zero standards, zero instrument students, and zero multi students.

That is where I stand with direct track.... Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet... The FSA student is a better gamble in my mind...

If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS
 
"Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet..."

Prove it. Sorry ILS, FBO CFI's do just fine in jet ground school. The regionals set it up so that if you work hard and have a good attitude, you'll get through it, whether you have an academy background or whatever. You're shooting from the hip, considering you've never even worked for an airline.
 
CLR4ILS said:
If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS
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LOL...I love it.

Even though I see everyones very well made points regarding the experience gained as a flight instructor, "paying your dues", and the best of the industry, I have to raise this flag. If it was best for the industry to raise standards and not hire direct trackee's, why wouldnt they. Obviously the industry needs the less experienced pilots to take jobs for 5 years and pay them less so that the company can survive (its better for the industry). Also, how does teaching students stalls, steep turns, etc. have anything to do with flying a regional aircraft. When was the last time you airline or freight pilots stalled "accidentally". And, the fanciest equipment a CFI will see is a G1000, I see learning the systems of an aircraft being a hell of a lot more important to assisting the captain with 5000 hours than watching for mistakes in his flying. And personally, I think anyone in the right seat up against a captain would wonder how to say something if they saw something wrong...its a captain that has more hours and experience than you period. I show the same respect to the instructor I flew with today that was all over the localizer, but I had no problem telling him to watch what he was doing. If the F/O cant have the balls to say something without worry that he will feel stupid, then he should probably go flight instruct people who are just starting out in aviation to raise his confidence level.

And for the person saying he was "afraid of my mindset. This isnt like driving a bus.", its the people like me who question what they see and read that you probably want to be flying with because we will to speak up and not worry if it makes us look bad since we know from experience its better to ask than fail (or crash) cause we did not ask in the first place. And because we ask, we sit in the back seat of small aircraft to watch other students and instructors, we prowl the message boards, read everything aviation, and even practice approaches on FlightSim... we learn. I ask Captains and F/O's questions anytime I can about aircraft and flying, I dont care about whether or not they like it or what its like. Knowledge is power...

I still have not made the choice towards flight instruction or direct track. However, I can say that there is a place for both in the industry and both serve a purpose that makes the airlines and the industry of aviation "go round".
 
"Obviously the industry needs the less experienced pilots to take jobs for 5 years and pay them less so that the company can survive (its better for the industry)"

You should get into the management end of the airline biz, you'd be good at it.
 
CLR4ILS said:
You rang.....

I personally know four guys that went through. They all did extremely well...

Here is an interesting thought though. Now seriously give it a chance...

The regionals are hiring at 700/80 right now (lowest time I have seen in awhile). Would you rather have a CFI that finished their ratings at 350 hours and then instructed pre-privates for 300 hours and bought 50 hours of multi in a "time building safety pilot" program......OR......

A CIME graduate from FSA that went through the Advanced Airline Program flying LOFT procedures and instrument procedures set forth by by the hiring airline?

I would take the FSA AAP candidate in a heartbeat. remember, this is one example but it really is all to familiar with those of us who have seen instructors from small schools with zero standards, zero instrument students, and zero multi students.

That is where I stand with direct track.... Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet... The FSA student is a better gamble in my mind...

If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS
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Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.
 
Cav said:
Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.
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It sounds like your making the CFI to be more babysat than the direct track F/O. WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND LOL!

Why do we use words like punk?

Why cant that 22 year old that can fly the sim, recite the FOM, and think he is God's gift to the flight deck be someone who has a good record (stereotyping)? Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.
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why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....
 
launchpad said:
why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....
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I make the same decisions though as PIC now. I told someone with much much more time and experience as an instructor to go around after having a full scale deflection on the localizer on an approach today. I dont understand why its so hard to make a decision about the safety of a flight, its become almost like breathing (it keeps me breathing thats for sure).

And how is completing all the training from PP to CMEL not an accomplishment. You pay for training one way or another until you start getting paid. I know people that should be flying but cant even afford the training to get to the point where they can start getting paid...its unfortunate for them and the industry.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
If it was best for the industry to raise standards and not hire direct trackee's, why wouldnt they.
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I'd like to make a small point here. Small, but important.

"Best for the industry" is not an absolute, it is relative. There is what is "best" from a pilot's perspective, and there is what is "best" from an airline management perspective. They are two very, very, very different things.
 
"I make the same decisions though as PIC now. I told someone with much much more time and experience as an instructor to go around after having a full scale deflection on the localizer on an approach today"

LOL, good for you. Seriously, you come here asking for opinions but don't want to hear them. Stop talking about direct track and just do it. Then will have someone here who can tell us how great it is. Same for Cherokeee Cruiser. Just do it....
 
I personally think it is funny that people will pay more than they will earn their first year, just to get into the right seat of a jet one year sooner. If people are willing to do this, then the airlines should just hire people and not pay them the first year they fly. After all, it would be 'good for the industry'...
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
It sounds like your making the CFI to be more babysat than the direct track F/O. WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND LOL!

Why do we use words like punk?

Why cant that 22 year old that can fly the sim, recite the FOM, and think he is God's gift to the flight deck be someone who has a good record (stereotyping)? Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.
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I was trying to make the point that there is far more to being an FO than being able to fly the sim and know the FOM. I was trying to say that from a CRM standpoint a good attitude is just as important. A CFI is far better prepaired having used it in the cockpit everyday with students. Learning to fly the airplane during sim training isn't all that difficult for a CFI or a direct tracker. But once again we come back around to the whole well rounded pilot concept which a direct tracker is not. But you know what it doesn't matter, you've already made up your mind. Go pay $30k (or whatever it costs) to get a job that pays you $20k all because you're in a hurry to get to the airlines...which I view as rather immature. What will you do if you get furloughed or the airline doesn't hire you? What then? You've just shot yourself in the foot because no other airline is going to look at you just because you did a direct track program with another carrier.
 
Cav said:
Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.
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First, who said the guys going through DT have a god complex? The guys I know that went through did not act like they were entitled to anything. They earned that seat with proficiency and the ability to act as a crew member. The fact that they could afford to pay for the advanced training does not mean they are any less or more likely to get along with the captain or fullfill their duties....

Second, the scenario I gave which is all to common, clearly showed the direct track guy to be more proficient and qualified to take the right seat over the CFI with all pre-private time. I have witnessed first hand how well these guys can fly. They are trained at the ATP level with no exceptions. If they can't fly the Senecas and the ERJ sim in the instrument environment to the ATP level than they are out of the program. Lets not forget that they have to complete an oral and sim ride at the ATP level with the hiring airlines sim instructor before heading to ground school...

I myself had one of the two instructors that ran the ASA program for my CFII and MEI. He taught me everything he used in the ASA program with respect to instruments and multi engine flying. I aced both the CFII and MEI oral and flights recieving two letters of outstanding achievment...

I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven.....

I am sure you will stick to your guns on your 350 hour pre-private CFI... More power to you...

I look at everything from a "proficiency" standpoint (AS SHOULD ALL) and I know a WHOLE lot of CFI's out here in Arizona that I wouldn't want in the right seat over the DT candidate that was trained very thoroughly to the ATP level. Just because they have their instructor ratings and ran pre-privates to the practice area and back, that doesn't mean they are "proficient" enough to head off to CRJ ground school...


ILS
 
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