Advanced Airline Training Program

[bLizZuE]

Here is my 2 cents,

1: The money makes direct track a toal loser, 25K for a chance to get a 17k a year job one year sooner is pretty bad math.

If you instruct for a year you will make the same possibly more than the guy who did the direct track, but you will be paying much less in student loans.

2: If you want a gaurentee, buy a toaster.

None of these job offers are garunteed, not one. If the company decides to stop hireing, they will, regardless if you passsed an interview, or sim session.

3: 350 hours (mostly dual) does not make you an experianced pilot, no matter what school you went to.

Learning to operate a jet aircraft, with all it's systems and procedures does nothing to teach you judgement. Your CFI was there to keep you from scarring yourself (and him) $hitless when you did something dumb. Your actuall instrument time probably dosen't have two digits, much less three. You likely haven't ever been through an ACTUALL emergency in flight. The diference between what I knew when I graduated FSA's CFI course and what I know now is STAGGERING.

4: The airlines participate in these programs because it allows them to pay new FOs peanuts instead of what they should. The wisdom of having someone who has been flying for only a year (maybee less) as a vital crewmember is not a consideration.

The regionals who participate in these programs are scraficeing some of their safety margin for lower costs.


5. For every safe, compentent, knowledgeable DT FO, there is one who isn't.

Some people can step up to the challenge, and some can't. Many people use the military figlth trainign programs as a comparison. The USAF graduates F-15 pilots to their squadrons with aprox 400 hours, but the difference is what happens when they get to their units. There they are colsely supervised by mentors with 5-10 years of experiance. This is not always the case at the regionals.


I went to FSA and recived overall excellent training, some of the instructors were truely gifted teachers. However My true education has come over the past year teaching students. When I raduated from FSA, I too thjought I could quickley learn to fly a modern jet. I have since learned much about what it takes to be a pilot. I wouldn't trade this experiance for anything.

This is why I don't support/like the direct track.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Here is my 2 cents,

1: The money makes direct track a toal loser, 25K for a chance to get a 17k a year job one year sooner is pretty bad math.

If you instruct for a year you will make the same possibly more than the guy who did the direct track, but you will be paying much less in student loans.

Why do you assume everyone takes student loans to fly? Some people save and pay-as-you-go, and some people have enough to pay out of their pockets, even for direct track.

4: The airlines participate in these programs because it allows them to pay new FOs peanuts instead of what they should. The wisdom of having someone who has been flying for only a year (maybee less) as a vital crewmember is not a consideration.

The regionals who participate in these programs are scraficeing some of their safety margin for lower costs.

"Pay new FOs peanuts."

1st year pay is dictated by the collective bargaining agreement. Whether you start as a 300 hr f/o direct tracker, or a 1500 hour CFI... you will both start at the same 1st year hourly rate.

 

[Cav]

Why do you assume everyone takes student loans to fly? Some people save and pay-as-you-go, and some people have enough to pay out of their pockets, even for direct track.

You're missing the point. First, student loans or not the amount of money spent is rather rediculous to get a job that pays so low. Why not save the money and use it while you have lower wages, buy a house, whatever. It just doesn't make financial sense. The only way to justify it is if you are in such a hurry to get to the airlines that you throw all common sense to the wind.

In another post on this thread you said that it "worked" for the guys going to Pinnacle. Well of course it "worked" to get them the job. But that's not the point. I just don't understand why students are so blinded by ambition that all reason goes out the window. Perhaps at one point in my student career I may have felt the same way but reason prevailed and I took the high road and I'm glad I did. All that experience I gained as a CFI made me realize how green I really was. In fact every step I've taken in aviation makes me realize how much I have to learn. I'll probably feel a big dose of it when I hopefully upgrade in the next few months. That being said, I don't believe in skipping steps and that's the cold hard truth, direct track skips steps and that's why so many like my self have ZERO respect for the pilots it trains. That's right ZERO.

We've already beaten the pay v. cost issue but what about the negative effects direct track, and thus the commoditization of the airline pilot career, has on the proffession as a whole? If you believe this quasi form of PFJ does not harm the profession you are wrong. Apparently if you believe in direct track you think that to be an airline pilot you need nothing more than a few ratings, very little experience, a 1st class medical, and some additional expensive training which trains you to get through a 5 week airline training syllabus. This job needs to be difficult to obtain in order to keep the profession from sinking lower than it already has. Do you believe a hospital should be able to sell a residency to a recent med school graduate? Do you think associate positions at law firms should be sold to law school graduates? Slow down, enjoy the ride. Don't be blinded by your own ambition only to contribute to the deliquency of the profession you hope to use to support your families. This is a career.

So go quote some ASA sim instructor who says direct track guys are the best guys to come through the department. Geez they probably should be they've been training for the training department for a while. However, getting through the sim doesn't make you a good line pilot. Ask any of us (you know the guys actually working as airline pilots) what we think of flying a trip with a sim instructor who decided to come out and play for a few days on the line. The answer won't be so pretty. Training is training and the sim is the sim, but nothing is a substitute for flying a real airplane. Flame away.

 

[jonboy34]

Re: It's official, no longer intersted in ASA

ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates

dude if u haven't heard asa is running classes in november and december...maybe you should call them back and see if u can work something out. I know the debt part sucks, but 3 years from now when you are making the same amount you would on the force, will you truley be happy knowing that you could have been flying...?

 

[RynoB]

Great thread, and I'll throw in my .02. Keep in mind I have no first hand knowledge of airline flying (coming from the corporate aviation world), or direct track programs. This comes from a retired airline captain with whom I've flown several hours in a Citation.

He flew for China Airlines in the 747SP, -200, and -400. Why was an American pilot flying for China Airlines? Because they were having trouble getting insurance for their operations.

Why were they having trouble getting insurance? Because their pilots were damaging planes, and killing hundreds of paying customers.

China Airlines believed that todays modern, high-tech airplanes could be flown by highly motivated pilots who knew systems and automation very well. They chose pilots who had very good memories and could quickly memorize procedures and systems. They believed that good stick and rudder skills, along with airmanship, were no longer needed in highly automated aircraft. Unfortunately, They found out that high-tech airplanes make big craters just as well as low-tech planes. These pilots with low time, but lots of sim training and ground school could not hand fly the aircraft, or make sound decisions when things went awry. They actually believe that the weather radar attracts lightning, so they leave it off when navigating through storm systems. After crashing several aircraft, insurance companies (not the airline) started demanding higher time pilots. They did not have a large source of high time pilots, so they recruited many western pilots. This friend of mine flew with many of these low time, highly trained pilots. He said that they could run the FMS and autopilot with the best of them, but he might as well been flying the 747 single pilot.

This is just another example of how low time pilots are a liability, not an asset, in a high performance jet.

 

[Check_Six]

This is just another example of how low time pilots are a liability, not an asset, in a high performance jet.

This is a really poor example as Chinese pilots do all their training and spend their entire careers doing the job in a foreign language.

I would love to see Americans trying to become pilots if having to learn to fly and eventually operate jets with the international language of aviation being Chinese. My bet is that many of the people on JC (myself included) would not be talking the big game that we are about low-time foreign pilots...and might not be pilots.

I agree that there are days when I wonder why in God's name anyone is going to allow certain Chinese students in any front seat of a jet. But, I try to keep in mind what they are having to overcome. I'm not saying that I'm thrilled about the level of safety, or lack thereof, that they bring to the cockpit...but I feel that some of the responsibility falls on the shoulders of American flight schools electing to pick up the Chinese training contracts.

It's easy to cast dirty stares at Chinese pilots while not considering the implications for ourselves if the language barrier went the other way.

 

[CLR4ILS]

Here is my 2 cents,

1: The money makes direct track a toal loser, 25K for a chance to get a 17k a year job one year sooner is pretty bad math. .

If you are going to quote numbers, quote them accuratley. The first year pay with these contracts are equal to what the program costs. Nice gamble in my book to skip all of those turns around a point and gain seniority...

If you instruct for a year you will make the same possibly more than the guy who did the direct track, but you will be paying much less in student loans..

Not everyone needs student loans. To some, the leg up is worth the price.

3: 350 hours (mostly dual) does not make you an experianced pilot, no matter what school you went to..

Learning to operate a jet aircraft, with all it's systems and procedures does nothing to teach you judgement. Your CFI was there to keep you from scarring yourself (and him) $hitless when you did something dumb. Your actuall instrument time probably dosen't have two digits, much less three. You likely haven't ever been through an ACTUALL emergency in flight. The diference between what I knew when I graduated FSA's CFI course and what I know now is STAGGERING..

1000 hours of pre-private maneuvers and x-countries don't make you any more ready to fly that jet either and that is 9 out od 10 of your 1000 hour instructors out there...

4: The airlines participate in these programs because it allows them to pay new FOs peanuts instead of what they should. The wisdom of having someone who has been flying for only a year (maybee less) as a vital crewmember is not a consideration.

The regionals who participate in these programs are scraficeing some of their safety margin for lower costs. .

And you think that if these programs did not exist, the regionals would pay more?

5. For every safe, compentent, knowledgeable DT FO, there is one who isn't.

Some people can step up to the challenge, and some can't. Many people use the military figlth trainign programs as a comparison. The USAF graduates F-15 pilots to their squadrons with aprox 400 hours, but the difference is what happens when they get to their units. There they are colsely supervised by mentors with 5-10 years of experiance. This is not always the case at the regionals..

Ask Check Six what his dad who is an ex military pilot and retired united what he thinks about the direct track program VS the average 1000 hour CFI out of your average school. I have met his dad and he is a very sharp pilot... Of course DE will challenge his dad because he knows everything...

When I raduated from FSA, I too thjought I could quickley learn to fly a modern jet. I have since learned much about what it takes to be a pilot. I wouldn't trade this experiance for anything.

Explain...... about the jet experience..


ILS

 

[ananoman]

This is a really poor example as Chinese pilots do all their training and spend their entire careers doing the job in a foreign language.

First off, he didn't say anything about the pilots being unable to communicate or how they didn't understand the airplane. The problem is that they were great at pushing buttons, they just didn't have what it takes to be the PIC of a jet.

One thing that is not fully realized by many who read this is that there are real cultural differences between us and the Chinese. Contrary to what you may have been told about how all cultures are equal and other PC crap in school, sometimes this is not true. In some occasions these differences can have very negative consequences.

I have worked with several people who have extensive experience training the Chinese and there are several recurring themes that usually come up. One is that they are highly motivated and intelligent. This makes sense as
their employer is not going to spend a huge amount of cash to send people over here to train if they are not up to the task. So, this is not the problem.

Language can be an issue, but they usually bring a translator if this is a big problem. The two biggest problem areas are CRM and the unwillingness to make decisions or assert their authority as PIC.

CRM is a big problem between the PIC and SIC, because the PIC is older and has more experience. In their culture this is highly respected and many times the SIC will sit there and let their Captain kill them or do something hugely retarded because in their culture it is disrespectful to voice an opinion contrary to a superior.

The other thing that can happen is that the PIC is unwilling or afraid to assert their authority. I spent several days working as a contract pilot with someone who had gone to China to teach pilots how to fly the jets that had just been purchased by an airline. He was going out on training flights with the Chinese after they had finished sim training, so the could be signed off to carry passengers. On one day, there were lots of thunderstorms everywhere and the American did not want to fly, but the Chinese pilots were adamant that they had to get the flights done. So off they go. Well, there were thunderstorms all along their route and the Chinese pilot was just going to fly right through them. The American wanted to deviate, but the Chinese pilot explained that all the airspace was military and they were not allowed to deviate. So the American says 'I am not going to fly through those thunderstorms, we will turn around and go back'. The Chinese also explained that they were not allowed to deviate from their flight plan. So the American gets on the radio and informs ATC that they are returning to the airport and ATC gave them permission to return! Needless to say, the Chinese pilot was very flustered after all this and had to make an approach with thunderstorms moving in to the vicinity of the airport. On approach it was very gusty and the Chinese pilot basically gave up and the American had to take control of the airplane and land. Although this is a rather extreme example, it was a recurring theme that has come up with several people I have talked to.

 

[ananoman]

And you think that if these programs did not exist, the regionals would pay more?

Quite possibly. If you make a point of hiring a bunch of starry eyed noobs, who have already demonstrated they will pay any price to get into the right seat. It is kind of hard for the pilot group to try to bring up starting salaries when the airline knows that there are people willing to fork over $22k to get their grubby mits on a seniority number.

 

[Flysher]

Whats the big deal with getting that seniority number ASAP? Doesnt your seniority number go to the bottom when you go to a different company anyway?

I could understand this theory if there was a national seniority list and you were ranked with ALL the pilots in the industry, but for one company that could go belly up in 2 years it just doesnt justify the rush for me.

 

[RynoB]

CRM is a big problem between the PIC and SIC, because the PIC is older and has more experience. In their culture this is highly respected and many times the SIC will sit there and let their Captain kill them or do something hugely retarded because in their culture it is disrespectful to voice an opinion contrary to a superior.

The other thing that can happen is that the PIC is unwilling or afraid to assert their authority. I spent several days working as a contract pilot with someone who had gone to China to teach pilots how to fly the jets that had just been purchased by an airline. He was going out on training flights with the Chinese after they had finished sim training, so the could be signed off to carry passengers. On one day, there were lots of thunderstorms everywhere and the American did not want to fly, but the Chinese pilots were adamant that they had to get the flights done. So off they go. Well, there were thunderstorms all along their route and the Chinese pilot was just going to fly right through them. The American wanted to deviate, but the Chinese pilot explained that all the airspace was military and they were not allowed to deviate. So the American says 'I am not going to fly through those thunderstorms, we will turn around and go back'. The Chinese also explained that they were not allowed to deviate from their flight plan. So the American gets on the radio and informs ATC that they are returning to the airport and ATC gave them permission to return! Needless to say, the Chinese pilot was very flustered after all this and had to make an approach with thunderstorms moving in to the vicinity of the airport. On approach it was very gusty and the Chinese pilot basically gave up and the American had to take control of the airplane and land. Although this is a rather extreme example, it was a recurring theme that has come up with several people I have talked to.

This is very true. Many of the Asian cultures place a lot of stock in class. As you said, the captain is more experienced, and usually older. The younger first officers are not to question their authority. The 747 captain I know was flying a trip where the Chinese FO was flying. On short final, the FO lost his cool and suddenly said, "Captain, I think you should fly now!" and let go of the controls. The captain was just able to take control of the plane to land it.

Not all Chinese pilots were this way according to him. He said that there were several good Chinese pilots. But as stated before, these problems were a reoccurring theme.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Of course DE will challenge his dad because he knows everything..."

I'll take that as a complement...

For every guys dad, or UPS pilot who thinks I'm an idiot, that you can come up with, I can find 100 that wouldn't want to fly with a 300 hour F/O. Everyone I talk to about this can't believe it.

 

[Check_Six]

First off, he didn't say anything about the pilots being unable to communicate or how they didn't understand the airplane. The problem is that they were great at pushing buttons, they just didn't have what it takes to be the PIC of a jet.

IMHO, the ability to effectively commuicate is a HUGE part of being PIC. That goes for anyone, but is more difficult to accomplish when speaking a foreign language. Having to search for words while trying to be assertive can kill the tone of authority in your voice. As I said, if you had to learn to fly from zero hour to an Airbus crew position in 10 months IN CHINESE you would also only be "great at pushing buttons."

Contrary to what you may have been told about how all cultures are equal and other PC crap in school, sometimes this is not true. In some occasions these differences can have very negative consequences.

I spend every day training Chinese contract students. I am quite familiar with cultural differences and their effects on operating in the flight environment.

I have worked with several people who have extensive experience training the Chinese and there are several recurring themes that usually come up. One is that they are highly motivated and intelligent. This makes sense as
their employer is not going to spend a huge amount of cash to send people over here to train if they are not up to the task. So, this is not the problem.

You are right about them being highly motivated and intelligent. I consider myself to be highly motivated and intelligent, but I know that my ability to be an assertive PIC (much less a pilot in general) would be infinitely more difficult in Chinese. It's not like latin, spanish, german, etc. This is a very large language and culture differential that they are forced to overcome.

Language can be an issue, but they usually bring a translator if this is a big problem. The two biggest problem areas are CRM and the unwillingness to make decisions or assert their authority as PIC.

Try to imagine, for a moment, shooting a ILS approach in hard IMC with turbulence while attempting to use your translator. That is simply not an option.

I do agree with you that CRM is a huge issue...but what really is "CRM"?

Answer: Communication

All of the fancy definitions that the airlines attached to those three letters is basically crap. CRM is the ability for a crew to communicate. Asserting your authority as PIC, or speaking up as an SIC has a lot to do with confidence and communication.

A large part of the reason that the Chinese PIC in your example (thunderstorm guy) gave up is because of insufficient confidence. The confidence comes from KNOWING that you can handle the situation...which is built from not allowing them to earn ratings with sub-standard skills. I know Chinese students with IR tickets who can't shoot an approach to save their life. Just squeaking through PTS standards to get a rating isn't going to make that student grow into a jet pilot who will fully understand his own capabilities and limitations.

My original point, however, is that you cannot use Chinese pilots as an effective argument for stating that "low-time" pilots don't belong in a jet. There are plenty of decent points to be made, but that one simply doesn't qualify.

 

[RynoB]

Check Six. You have excellent points, and I agree with everything you said. However, I think you missed the point of my post. Many of the Asian cultures believed that high-tech planes would prevent crashes, not pilots. So they trained their pilots primarily to use the automation and not fly the plane. The Chinese pilots were crashing planes and having problems before western pilots came on board, so that should solve the language barrier between Captain and FO. The American pilots were brought on as a result of the accidents.

You were right about language barriers after western pilots got into the cockpit. The American captain that I know said that most of the Chinese pilots only knew the technical English required to fly the plane. For example, when he was ready to start a descent, he couldn't simply tell his FO, "I'm ready for lower." He had to specifically state, "call ATC, request lower altitude."

 

[ananoman]

A large part of the reason that the Chinese PIC in your example (thunderstorm guy) gave up is because of insufficient confidence. The confidence comes from KNOWING that you can handle the situation...which is built from not allowing them to earn ratings with sub-standard skills. I know Chinese students with IR tickets who can't shoot an approach to save their life. Just squeaking through PTS standards to get a rating isn't going to make that student grow into a jet pilot who will fully understand his own capabilities and limitations.

My original point, however, is that you cannot use Chinese pilots as an effective argument for stating that "low-time" pilots don't belong in a jet. There are plenty of decent points to be made, but that one simply doesn't qualify.

The problem with your argument is that these were not low time pilots. They all had thousands of hours of time. So there was no need to use a translator to fly an ILS, or to discuss why you should not fly through a thunderstorm.

I agree with you about how this whole 'Chinese Pilot' discussion does not belong in this thread, it has nothing to do with low time pilots in jets or direct track. I was just pointing out some recurring issues that have come up when training foreign pilots.

Many of these issues are not confined to Chinese pilots either. You always cringe when you know you are going to have pilots from Africa or India as well. Sometimes you are pleasantly suprised and they are very sharp, most of the time, they have horrible instrument skills and cannot even complete basic task in the sim. This is why I always think it is funny when people use accident statistics to justify direct track. I have seen pilots with 10,000 hrs who could not fly their way out of a wet paper bag. Language is usually not an issue either. Most of the pilots I have worked with have passable English. Usually the ones that live this long have done so by knowing their limitations and living with them. Getting pilots like this from the North America, Western Europe and Mexico was extremely rare. It was usually the low time owner/operator you had to watch out for if they were US pilots.

 

[Cav]

Quite possibly. If you make a point of hiring a bunch of starry eyed noobs, who have already demonstrated they will pay any price to get into the right seat. It is kind of hard for the pilot group to try to bring up starting salaries when the airline knows that there are people willing to fork over $22k to get their grubby mits on a seniority number.

I doubt this point will matter much to CLR4ILS. It's the same reason CAL has no PIC Turbine requirement and Mesa hires tons of MAPD/PACE guys. CAL wants to hire all the scab kids and Mesa wants to hire as many low time guys as possible so they can manipulate the vote for anything that comes down the pipe.

 

[USMCmech]

1000 hours of pre-private maneuvers and x-countries don't make you any more ready to fly that jet either and that is 9 out od 10 of your 1000 hour instructors out there...

1000 hours of flying time as the PILOT IN COMMAND will (and has) teach me an imense amount judgment, decision making, weather, dealing with emergencies, mechanics, regulations and much more.

Being pressured to fly an overweight airplane, and one that was not airworthy taught me a lot about judgement. Having my radio fail completely taught me a lot about lost comm procedures. Having my engine quit due to fuel starvation taught me a lot about energy management. Many basic principles that I barely understood when I graduated FSA are now clear.

When the time comes, I will quickly learn about the systems, procedures for a Regional Jet.

And you think that if these programs did not exist, the regionals would pay more?

Yes, the regionals can get away with paying peanuts because there are lines of people who will fork over a new car for the privlage.

Explain...... about the jet experience..

I don't have any jet experiance. I would have a difficult enough time keeping one staright and level, much less anything else.

What I do have is REAL WORLD FLYING EXPERIANCE. More PIC time in the 2 months than some guys who have been flying RJs have had in 2 years.

As I told my student today, the guy who is making the decisions is the one flying, regardless of whose hands are on the controlls.



ILS, I wonder why you are so enthusastic about defending FSA and their programs when you are not even flying professionally any more. I don't even get this worked up about my religous beliefs, much less for some school halfway across the country.

FSA is IMHO the best of the flight acadmies, but they can not teach experiance nor can anybody else.

 

[DE727UPS]

Don't worry about ILS, you guys. As usual, he's taking pot shots from the peanut gallery. The day he gets an airline job is the day he graduates.

 

[CLR4ILS]

Don't worry about ILS, you guys. As usual, he's taking pot shots from the peanut gallery. The day he gets an airline job is the day he graduates.

And the day you do not spend every waking minute on this website, someone might almost begin to think you actually have a life..

ILS

 

[CLR4ILS]

1000 hours of flying time as the PILOT IN COMMAND will (and has) teach me an imense amount judgment, decision making, weather, dealing with emergencies, mechanics, regulations and much more.

Being pressured to fly an overweight airplane, and one that was not airworthy taught me a lot about judgement. Having my radio fail completely taught me a lot about lost comm procedures. Having my engine quit due to fuel starvation taught me a lot about energy management. Many basic principles that I barely understood when I graduated FSA are now clear.

When the time comes, I will quickly learn about the systems, procedures for a Regional Jet.




Yes, the regionals can get away with paying peanuts because there are lines of people who will fork over a new car for the privlage.




I don't have any jet experiance. I would have a difficult enough time keeping one staright and level, much less anything else.

What I do have is REAL WORLD FLYING EXPERIANCE. More PIC time in the 2 months than some guys who have been flying RJs have had in 2 years.

As I told my student today, the guy who is making the decisions is the one flying, regardless of whose hands are on the controlls.



ILS, I wonder why you are so enthusastic about defending FSA and their programs when you are not even flying professionally any more. I don't even get this worked up about my religous beliefs, much less for some school halfway across the country.

FSA is IMHO the best of the flight acadmies, but they can not teach experiance nor can anybody else.

Thats great that you have experienced some emergencies and were able to handle them. You have had more than your share from how it sounds. Most instructors at 1000 hours are lucky (or unlucky) to have had one.

My point is, and I know I am accurate, is that most of the instructors out there at 1000 hours have 95% PPL time, no actual, no multi, no emergencies under their belt and basically no time on the stick themselves. I meet them all the time. That wonderful PIC time/REAL WORLD EXPERIECE to the practice area and back you speak of is not making you anymore prepared for that RJ job period. I know you want to believe differently and that is your right but I will take the FSA direct track guy over that 1000 PPL CFI any day. Show me a CFI like the ones out of FSA UND, or ATP that have a good amount of multi instrument time and I will swing my vote the other way...

Reading these posts/forums on JC tells me one thing.... Too many of these new and somewhat seasoned pilots/CFI's have a huge confidence problem. It is almost scary...

ILS