Advanced Airline Training Program

"It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling"

How long it was is irrelavent. In my opinion it did erupt into a fight with insults and a threats. I saw it as only getting worse and the first posters questions had certainly been addressed. I thought it was best to let Badco make his rebuttle to ILS and stop it there. Someone disagreed. Complained to Doug. And here we are. Game on...

"Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator"

Pretty easy to say when your opinion is on the other side of the fence from mine. I'm sure ILS will agree with you.

"Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing..."

Are you serious? Peaceful? No bashing? LOL, not sure we're reading the same thread.
 
DE727UPS said:
"It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling"

How long it was is irrelavent. In my opinion it did erupt into a fight with insults and a threats. I saw it as only getting worse and the first posters questions had certainly been addressed. I thought it was best to let Badco make his rebuttle to ILS and stop it there. Someone disagreed. Complained to Doug. And here we are. Game on...

"Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator"

Pretty easy to say when your opinion is on the other side of the fence from mine. I'm sure ILS will agree with you.

"Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing..."

Are you serious? Peaceful? No bashing? LOL, not sure we're reading the same thread.
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Don, you do abuse your authority (if you want to call it that) as a moderator. You Conveniently closed the thread after Badco said exactly what you wanted to hear.

I see flags all over this topic BTW.... If Badco wants to tell ASA to bag it. Thats his mistake. The money has been paid, the training has been done, and if there were a class date in the future, I would take it and ask FSA to help get me current.

Badco, sorry bro, but I think you are shooting yourself in the foot by turning your head on FSA and ASA. You might not like being on the force again. You may wish you could take that class date when it arises, or work something out with Safety for instructing or something.

Think about it....

And Don, don't get yourself all worked up pal over one student who had a disapointing experience at FSA. This isn't Gulfstream we are talking about here. I know FSA has made an effort to make things right. I have spoken with some of my old Colleagues down there. If Badco wanted, something will happen for him. Flight Safety International and the academy treat their customers well and always put them first...

ILS
 
For the record, I never complained to Doug about this thread being closed. Looking back, maybe I should have.


Anyway, Don,

Don, you do abuse your authority (if you want to call it that) as a moderator. You Conveniently closed the thread after Badco said exactly what you wanted to hear.
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I agree with ILS.
 
Re: It's official, no longer intersted in ASA

badco99 said:
ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates, but they woke me up and caught me off guard. Oh well, that's life I guess. To be perfectly honest I don't feel like I'm ready to go to ASA right now. It's not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm not instrument current and I know for a fact the first time I got into that plane I would probably be overwhelmed by the radios and everything else because I haven't flown in so long.
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Believe me when I say I'd rather be flying than going back to law enforcement. I LOVE to fly. It has been my first choice of careers for as long as I can remember, law enforecment was a distant second.
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Badco, I can't believe you told them you aren't interested. The second portion of your thread I quoted clearly spells that you love flying. Yes, I understand you haven't been current, but, I'm sure you can try your best and get current.

Your first paragraph I quoted sounds like someone who just isn't willing to try aviation anymore, and just wants to quit. But then your second portion I quoted sounds like you would be a hard worker, and would stop at nothing to get that goal.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

I'm sorry how things have turned out for you.

But you turning down the ASA when they called for an update, is your own free will decision. Honestly, as much as you may have learned and gained from the $22.5k , by turning ASA down, my opinion is that money has just been wasted. You spent your money to go to ASA, and once ASA called you up for an update, and maybe a potential early 2007 class, you turned them down. Now if you really loved law enforcement, and were back doing that, and very happy, then I wouldn't have been saying all this stuff. But the fact that you mentioned that you've always loved flying and LE was always second place, then I feel like you should have given everything you got into making ASA work.

Sorry for the way this turned out, but then again, you turned down ASA just now out of your own free will.


I don't wish you ill, of course not! I wish you the best wherever your future takes you.
 
cant we all just get along? give the mods some credit they have to judge a ton of posts and keep stuff in line. we all make mistakes and since doug is a reasonable person he reopened it. also im sure there is more to it then we all know.
 
In my opinion, the thread should have been closed based on what I've already talked about. Doug disagreed and reopened the thread. That's the way it is here at JC, no big deal.

I don't believe I abuse my power as a mod, though I certainly understand why you two (or three) feel that way. Feel free to take it up with the management at any time.

There are some people at JC that will ALWAYS think I'm abusing my power as a mod cause they don't like what I say, the way I say it, or just think mods shouldn't have an opinion or should steer away from controversy. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The only things I really feel strongly about are super low time jet F/O's, scabs, Gulfstream, and Riddle. This thread just happened to include one of those areas.
 
CLR4ILS said:
I don't have to work for an airline to know key people in the industry. Don't you remember, I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people. He must not know what he is talking about huh? I mean, you know, because he is not you.....

ILS
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So, you throw stuff like this around, then you complain that Don is abusing his authority? That makes me laugh. I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what any of us think any way. The programs are out there, and people are going to pay the money and take the ride. Things will probably work out for most people. If it didn't, FSA would not offer the program, since they are not in the business of screwing people.

After enough baby sitting, the graduates will go on to successful careers. You just have to decide if it is really worth it to pay that much money to get into that right seat. I personally would rather not have to worry about how I am going to make my loan payments every month as a first year FO that makes around $20k per year. From personal experience, I will tell you that having those loans really limits your options. One of the reasons I am not flying for a regional is because I could not afford to. Not that I am complaining. My pay and QOL is much higher where I am at.

To me, if someone really wants to get that turbine PIC in a hurry, you would be better off instructing and getting on with one of the regionals like Great Lakes that is known for quick upgrades. Sure the pay sucks, but some would say that it is 'good for the industry' and you get into that all important left seat in a hurry. Going direct track then sitting in the right seat at Eagle for the next 8 years makes no sense to me.
 
Exactly what I was thinking. It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about. Precisely why I don't put much stock in their opinion and choose to spend my time steering students away from direct track.

The benefit is not worth the risk. But most importantly direct track is commoditises the airline pilot career only slightly less than the likes of Gulfstream. It is the direct result of what I like to call the "microwave generation." Instant gratification regardless of price. What's wrong with good ole' fashioned hard work? But I guess that takes too much effort and time. We should be making it harder to become an airline pilot not easier.

Carry on Don, keep telling them what they don't want to hear.
 
Everyone seems to forget that a big factor in my decision has to do with money, money I don't have. Now while FSA may look out for their customers they are still a business. Go back to FSA and instruct??? OK, well, the only way I can do that is to get my CFII and re-interview. Money. Go and get recurrent...money. Are we seeing a pattern yet? Money, money, money.

Did I shoot myself in the foot, maybe. I've really just hit that point where I've decided to cut my losses for the moment and move on. I haven't been moving anywhere in almost 10 months. When I get back on with the PD I'll be making almost $50,000 a year. I'll be able to pay my bills and still have a little left over to go fly every month. Hopefully I'll even be able to get a few friends to go with to help foot the bill. What I'd like to do is look into instructing. With my schedule I'll work 7 days out of every 14. So I'm hoping I can fit some instructing on the side in there. I'm sure flying in the DC area is a great learning experience.

As for Don abusing his power...of course he is, he's a jerk. :sarcasm: Really, Don and I have different opinions and have had it out in the past. While I still don't agree with him 100% I can see where he's coming from. He's giving his honest opinion and just trying to give newbie pilots a good direction to go in. (Never thought I'd say any of that). I think his biggest problem is he comes across as a little harsh most of the time. No matter what I'm looking forward to lunch with him next Saturday. Hope to see a few others there as well.
 
I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.


Cav said:
Exactly what I was thinking. It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about. Precisely why I don't put much stock in their opinion and choose to spend my time steering students away from direct track.
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I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.
 
Just mention direct track and this is pretty much what happens. This thread has actually been pretty tame compared to some others.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.

I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.
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It is a shame that this happens. I don't think anyone holds it against people who bring these topics up. That is the whole point of this forum. But, you have already seen that most of us who have moved on to the right seat think that these programs are not a good idea.

It is also quite possible that if you ask a long time airline pilot what they think, that they will tell you to that these programs are a great idea. To get some idea where they are coming from, you have to look into the seniority system at the airlines and realize how important that number will be to your life. You also have to remember that none of them have had to fly with a 250 hour co-pilot, unless they were in the military (these guys will have lots of jokes about near death experiences).

I personally know of at least one person who was helped a great deal by going through the direct track program. He made it to ASA pre 9/11. If he would have gone the instructor route, he would have been instructing for another 2 years before the airlines started to hire again. So, yes it can work for you. Many of us just don't think it is a good idea.

I remember talking to a couple of instrument students back when I was an instructor about how they should set hard limits for themselves after they got their rating. I was trying to explain to them that just because they had a new license in their pocket that said they could shoot approaches to 200' and 1/2sm, they were not really qualified to do so. The two students were rather argumentative. "What do you mean? I have the license, so I am qualified," was their argument. I coulden't get them to understand that real life is different than lifting the foggles on a clear day with your CFI sitting next to you. The point of all this is, those two really didn't know what they didn't know.

It is easy to pat yourself on the back after getting your commercial at 250 hours. But you really have a lot to learn about flying. And, the things you need to learn can't be taught in a level D sim. They are not part of an airplane specific training program. Those already assume you have a high level of judgement and general flying knowledge. All you will learn is how to fly a specific airplane.

It is not until you get out into the world that you will really learn. Many of us think that this should be done before you go to the airlines.
 
Aviator_Bakeek said:
I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.




I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.
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Nope a general statement. I realize you are just looking for some answers.
 
"I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet"

"It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about"

I have noticed this, as well. It's pretty ironic and quite amusing. How many times have you heard guys with some experience say "Yeah, when I had 300 hours I thought I knew it all but now that I have 1500 in the jet I realize how little I really knew". Now there's a recurring theme...

"It is not until you get out into the world that you will really learn. Many of us think that this should be done before you go to the airlines"

Amen.
 
ananoman said:
So, you throw stuff like this around, then you complain that Don is abusing his authority? That makes me laugh. I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet.
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I have not met one DT grad that was not humble. They work hard to get through the program. It is not an easy program. There is no god complex with the graduates. I only defend the quality of the program. I have seen the results and they are impressive. If money is not an issue, then it really is a good way to jump start your career.



ananoman said:
To me, if someone really wants to get that turbine PIC in a hurry, you would be better off instructing and getting on with one of the regionals like Great Lakes that is known for quick upgrades. Sure the pay sucks, but some would say that it is 'good for the industry' and you get into that all important left seat in a hurry. Going direct track then sitting in the right seat at Eagle for the next 8 years makes no sense to me.
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Forget Great Lakes..... Mesa and Eagle are hiring at 700/100 right now. I will say that with hiring mins this low, get your initial, instruct for 300 hours and move on. You will still be green, but if you are sharp enough on instruments to get through the sim ride..... Fantastic..

ILS


ILS
 
Here is my 2 cents,

1: The money makes direct track a toal loser, 25K for a chance to get a 17k a year job one year sooner is pretty bad math.

If you instruct for a year you will make the same possibly more than the guy who did the direct track, but you will be paying much less in student loans.

2: If you want a gaurentee, buy a toaster.

None of these job offers are garunteed, not one. If the company decides to stop hireing, they will, regardless if you passsed an interview, or sim session.

3: 350 hours (mostly dual) does not make you an experianced pilot, no matter what school you went to.

Learning to operate a jet aircraft, with all it's systems and procedures does nothing to teach you judgement. Your CFI was there to keep you from scarring yourself (and him) $hitless when you did something dumb. Your actuall instrument time probably dosen't have two digits, much less three. You likely haven't ever been through an ACTUALL emergency in flight. The diference between what I knew when I graduated FSA's CFI course and what I know now is STAGGERING.

4: The airlines participate in these programs because it allows them to pay new FOs peanuts instead of what they should. The wisdom of having someone who has been flying for only a year (maybee less) as a vital crewmember is not a consideration.

The regionals who participate in these programs are scraficeing some of their safety margin for lower costs.


5. For every safe, compentent, knowledgeable DT FO, there is one who isn't.

Some people can step up to the challenge, and some can't. Many people use the military figlth trainign programs as a comparison. The USAF graduates F-15 pilots to their squadrons with aprox 400 hours, but the difference is what happens when they get to their units. There they are colsely supervised by mentors with 5-10 years of experiance. This is not always the case at the regionals.


I went to FSA and recived overall excellent training, some of the instructors were truely gifted teachers. However My true education has come over the past year teaching students. When I raduated from FSA, I too thjought I could quickley learn to fly a modern jet. I have since learned much about what it takes to be a pilot. I wouldn't trade this experiance for anything.
 
Update on those PNCL new hires. Before phase III, all 10 of those guys were assigned the Oct 16th class date.


Oct 16th class date was cancelled while they were still training in phase IV.



All 10 assigned to the next class available, October 30th class. This has been confirmed from FSA itself.


Guess it worked for them very well, good luck to those guys.
 
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