Aborted Takeoff

E_Dawg

Moderator
Takeoffs are Optional

Just came across this article; what do you think?

Of all the emergencies and problems I have personally trained for, I've never done a real or simulated aborted takeoff. I agree with the author that most single engine airplane pilots have a mindset that the takeoff WILL happen. Has anyone had to abort a T/O in a single?
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
No, but I recall one time when I should've aborted a takeoff in a C-152 as a student pilot. The airplane had an inoperative pitot/static system during a night takeoff and my CFI and I didn't notice it until climbout. Since then, I always call out "airspeed alive, oil temp and oil pressure in the green arc" during the takeoff roll prior to rotation.

The article is very accurate about the single engine pilot's hesitancy to abort takeoffs. During my multi training, I encounted a situation in which I DID need to abort due to an engine cowling that popped open early in the roll. It took me several seconds to react and my instructor had to yell ABORT! twice before I retarded the throttles. It really does take some conditioning to realize that it's OK to abort a takeoff if you need to. Just another reason multi training is a good idea......
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Yes. Engine wasn't developing sufficient power. That's happened a few times. Had birds fly in front of us. Two or three times. And one strange time in San Juan where a pack of dogs ran out on the runway.
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
I never had an actual aborted takeoff in a single. However I practiced it a few times during my training, and ensured my students had practiced it as well. One time with a student I held one brake down while they advanced the power, to see if they would abort. The student didn't, and we spun 180 degrees on the runway. I asked him why he didn't bring the power back and/or apply brakes on the other side. He didn't have an answer, but I'm sure it was due to not being prepared that something might go wrong.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Chicaga, (or any othe CFI's out there)
I understand the need for pilots to be able to handle any emergency situation, but I have a questions regarding the "brake" holding. What would have happened if when you spun around 180 degrees on the rw you damaged the ac, took out a rw light, etc... Wouldn't that be a bad mark on the CFI's record? How could you explain having purposely held the brakes? I am just curious where one can draw the line between safe training and abnormal/emergency <edit from risky> training. Does the FAA have any rules stating what can and cannot be done regarding the teaching of "emergency" type training? For myself I had an instructor pop open the door on climbout and it did create quite a commotion for me.
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
You have to weight the advantage of the training versus the perceived risk involved. In holding the brake, I could easily have applied opposite brake (which I did). On a 150 foot wide runway, I knew that if we should veer to one side, we would A) not go very far with one brake held, and B) be able to maintain control with the opposite side. Now I was exaggerating a bit with 180 degrees... it was more like 135 degrees. But we were at an uncontrolled field without traffic in the vicinity, and I felt letting the airplane pivot (not turn, but actually pivot) would make the situation stand out in the mind of the student. If it was a tighter runway, slippery, etc., the situation would have been different.

The object of doing "emergency" and "abnormal" training with students is to get them to see some things that might happen out flying that they wouldn't otherwise see. At my school we had an excellent maintenance department and new airplanes with a high level of reliability. Therefore, the students didn't have to deal with many actual emergencies. There is a limit to what you can do, and you have to use your head about it.

As a CFI you should try and show your students as best you can some abnormal situations they would see in flight. However, you should always ensure what you are doing can be undone safely should the student not react at all, or act in the incorrect manner.

For example: What happens when you start working as an MEI? You are essentially turning off an operating engine to train for an emergency procedure. But it is necessary so that the student can grasp the severity of the situation. The same can be said for the open door. Now that you have seen what happens when a door opens in flight, are you not better prepared for the loud commotion that ensues?

You should NOT take chances as a CFI. But you should ensure your student has experienced a variety of abnormal and emergency simulations so they will not freak out someday when the not-so-well-maintained rental decides to break on them, and turning to the right to look for help they find an empty seat.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
I use the brake holding technique. I watch the pilot very carefully however. If the plane starts veering off to one side and no reaction I take action.

Only one guy didn't recognize it right away, and get this, he was a 747 pilot for Evergreen! He'd been a captain of mine at Mesa. He told me later he attributed the yaw to small airplane characteristics. The guy is a great pilot so I gave him a second chance


MEIs - PLEASE teach your students the Red-Yellow-Green rule.

SAY IT OUT LOUD BEFORE EACH TAKEOFF!
Red: An abort can be made (adequate runway remaining) - close the throttles and stop!
Yellow: A take off must be made - Instant Verify and Feather if any problem!
Green: A safe altitude has ben reached and emergency/abnormal checklists can be read.

This has saved more than a few lives!
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Thanks for the informative/professional response. I sometimes hesitate to ask the questions like that here. I don't want to start any flame wars and have people think Who does he think he is questioning my abilities as a CFI? I can say that I am definetly more prepared should the door pop open in flight.
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
I had one instructor pull the mixture on me when we started our takeoff roll. It was on a long runway so I had plenty of room to stop, but I was one pissed off guy. After I stopped the plane, I asked him what the bleep that was for and he told me it was a test and that I passed.

That was one test I was not happy about taking.
 

FL270

New Member
I would close the fuel selector on the 152 when we took position on the runway. This would result in the engine quitting at about 30 knots on the takeoff roll ... it always caught my students by surprise. Good object lesson in being prepared for anything on takeoff (or any other time).

FL270
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
I've never aborted a takeoff in a single- never had any close calls, either.

I was the FO and non-flying pilot in the Brasilia one day and got a DING DING DING "ENGINE OIL" just prior to V1. I call "Abort." I think that was the first high-speed abort for both of us. It was a long runway so we had plenty of room.

I'm not looking forward to the day when I have to abort the jet on a short runway like Burbank, Santa Barbara, or Santa Ana. Here at Skywest in the RJ, they're really preaching abort ONLY in an emergency: enging failure, fire, thrust reverser unlock. There have been aborts for trivial things like Gen. Off, or Anti-Skid Inop messages (which should be inhibited until lift-off in the RJ).

The RJ has a neat feature that if a thrust reverser unlocks, the associated thrust lever is snapped to idle (rather violently). On takeoff we're taught to grip the thrust levers (until V1) in such a way that if one snaps back our hand will drag the other back simultaneously. Did it in the sim and works like a charm!
 

av8rmsu

Well-Known Member
I aborted a takeoff in a C150 last summer. Airspeed alive?!...well kinda.

The airspeed came up to about 20 knots and that was it. I simply closed the throttle and called tower. Ends up there was a bug stuck in the tube.
 

johnbail

New Member
olny once one of our club plans decided it would sputter afet going to full power at CTY. It is remarkable how quickly you remeber your training when that happens. I was lucky it happend very shortly after I applied power.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the informative/professional response. I sometimes hesitate to ask the questions like that here. I don't want to start any flame wars and have people think Who does he think he is questioning my abilities as a CFI? I can say that I am definetly more prepared should the door pop open in flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask whatever you like, no harm will ensue. Remember, most CFIs don't have more than a few hundred hours more than you, with experience commensurate to that. And a CFI is a license to learn as much as it is a license to teach. Plus, that's what CFIs are there for: to answer questions.
 

A300Capt

Freight Dawg
[ QUOTE ]
The RJ has a neat feature that if a thrust reverser unlocks, the associated thrust lever is snapped to idle (rather violently)

[/ QUOTE ]

The mechanical interlock between the thrust lever and reverse lever makes that pretty standard on most jets.
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
That I wouldn't have minded. That would have been something that would have been done without me seeing it and it would have probably been a better test than yanking the mixture on me.

I mean, just think about a guy who had around 20 hours in at that time seeing you do that!
 

Mahesh

New Member
When I first started my training, I had a bad habit of taking my hand off of the throttle knob after applying full power on the take-off roll. My instructor warned me a couple of times to keep my hand on it till I was at a safe altitude. I didn't listen.

Then one day, I took off and at about 30 feet, I suddenly lost power and he told me to land immediately (we had plenty of room). He had pulled the throttle to idle.

I was so busy smiling and looking out the windshield that I was not paying attention to what was happening inside. I thought we had lost the engine and had no idea he pulled it until he told me.

I learned my lesson that day.

This is the same guy who (another time) thought I was looking at the instruments too much and not paying attention to the feel and the look. He covered up the whole panel with a sectional chart and had me do a bunch of landings. That was very interesting and challenging, to fly an approach having no idea how fast I was going.

Mahesh
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
I aborted a takeoff in the very early days of my private training in a 152. Started the takeoff roll and was probably at about 40 knots when a pretty big flock of birds flew right across the runway. Scared the hell out of me!!!
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
I aborted a takeoff in the very early days of my private training in a 152. Started the takeoff roll and was probably at about 40 knots when a pretty big flock of birds flew right across the runway. Scared the hell out of me!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did they have clearance to cross the active?
 

Maximilian_Jenius

Super User
SkyWChris the last time that I was PHX. I saw some Skywest CRJ-700's in United paint.

Will Skywest be getting any CRJ-700's fer the Delta side of the business?

Lastly which side of the business do you fly fer Delta or United? Or both?


Matthew
 
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