Trip7
Well-Known Member
Wasting negotiating capital on something that might happen 15 years down the road while mainline is hiring in record numbers now is not efficient
AAG to Transfer Envoy ERJ-145s to TSA and Piedmont
- Thread starter J Cole
- Start date
Wasting negotiating capital on something that might happen 15 years down the road while mainline is hiring in record numbers now is not efficient
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
So the Envoy "pilots on property won't have to be on this 4 year pay scale, but new hire pilots will" is not a b-scale? Serious question. I'll like to learn how to describe it, because it sounds shady to me.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
I'm taking part in a conversation where I clearly have different opinions from others. That doesn't embarrass me.
Sounds shady to me too. If pilots on property are grandfathered in and don't take a payout, and new hires upgrade before four years. What saving does it offer management?
It may not offer savings because management assumptions on the future are incorrect, or it could improve their ability to bid on flying with fixed future costs; are my thoughts. Also, like others have said regionals want to reduce the number of "lifers".
Makes the most sense for management when there is no grandfathering for current pilots.
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meyers9163
Well-Known Member
I'll bite.... B scale example would be in the Envoy example a pilot hired on a normal scale would be paid like this:
Year 1 $35
Year 2 $37
Year 3 $39
Year 4 $41
B scale pilot, same job, is paid:
Year 1 $20
Year 2 $24
Year 3 $27
Year 4 $30
Thus it's a "B scale"
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
Does anyone think that the regional industry will be anything like it is today 4 years from now? Majors are hiring in really high numbers or will start to do so soon, there are fewer pilots entering training, the cost of living is going up ($15/hr minimum wage on the horizon), NAI, etc...
Arguing about things that may change several times before they happen is foolish. Do what is best for you and your family, your friends, and your coworkers, and move on.
Arguing about things that may change several times before they happen is foolish. Do what is best for you and your family, your friends, and your coworkers, and move on.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
Right. So what would have been Envoy's situation, you would have had the same thing, with the only exception being the b-scale would have started after year 4.
I understand what the definition of a b scale is. Where we are differing is how to apply that definition.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Oh my really? So you know what b scale means but are intentionally using the word incorrectly? That's not even ignorance but much worse.....
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You can't make up your own definition. Words mean things.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
How am I using it incorrectly?
Pilots on property
Year 1 $25
Year 2 $30
Year 3 $33
Year 4 $35
Year 5 $37
Year 6 $39
Year 7 $41
Year 8 $43
Pilots not on property
Year 1 $25
Year 2 $30
Year 3 $33
Year 4 $35
Year 5 $35
Year 6 $35
Year 7 $35
Year 8 $35
Is that not the same thing?
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
I don't think I am making up my own definition. Calling pilot groups who accepted concessions "scabs" would be making up a definition. I feel like I am using the definition of a b scale. Pilots would be doing the same job, with less pay.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
At Envoy, absolutely.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
Before the vote: I doubt it. With the additional airplanes, the natural attrition, and the pilots moving to main-line, all remaining FO's would have likely been at least offered the left seat, if they wanted it.
Now: I doubt it. There will likely by no "Envoy" in 4 years.
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
True!
CFIscare
Well-Known Member
The same principle applies to captains too.
tbstanto
Well-Known Member
The regionals are not a career destination.
The shrinking of Envoy was probable the plan from the beginning. It is no secret that US Airways really liked their regionals. The guy that was in charge of all regional carriers for Airways was moved to the head of PSA (which could have been seen as a demotion). Then, PSA gets a whole bunch more airplanes, and then even more. Next, Piedmont, who everyone thought was just going to shrivel up and die, is now doubling in size. PSA is flying the CRJ's and Piedmont is flying the ERJ's. That seems like a good plan and good business. The profits from those companies goes right back to AAG. They can share facilities, and keep costs even lower.
It seems like AAG is bringing all of their regional flying "home" to the US Air regional carriers. I am not saying that they will make the wholly owned regionals a part of mainline, but the regionals can be controlled and managed better, and be most cost effective, being run by the mainline carrier.
And, if this is the case, and PSA and Piedmont continue to grow and take more and more of the flying, how will they attract new pilots? That is easy. They can continue to pay the pilots what they are paying them now, and make the only way to get to mainline at American/US Air to be through their regionals (or maybe the military). If you know that if you go to PSA/Piedmont, you are almost guaranteed a good job at mainline after "X" number of years, most people will gladly go to work there.
The shrinking of Envoy was probable the plan from the beginning. It is no secret that US Airways really liked their regionals. The guy that was in charge of all regional carriers for Airways was moved to the head of PSA (which could have been seen as a demotion). Then, PSA gets a whole bunch more airplanes, and then even more. Next, Piedmont, who everyone thought was just going to shrivel up and die, is now doubling in size. PSA is flying the CRJ's and Piedmont is flying the ERJ's. That seems like a good plan and good business. The profits from those companies goes right back to AAG. They can share facilities, and keep costs even lower.
It seems like AAG is bringing all of their regional flying "home" to the US Air regional carriers. I am not saying that they will make the wholly owned regionals a part of mainline, but the regionals can be controlled and managed better, and be most cost effective, being run by the mainline carrier.
And, if this is the case, and PSA and Piedmont continue to grow and take more and more of the flying, how will they attract new pilots? That is easy. They can continue to pay the pilots what they are paying them now, and make the only way to get to mainline at American/US Air to be through their regionals (or maybe the military). If you know that if you go to PSA/Piedmont, you are almost guaranteed a good job at mainline after "X" number of years, most people will gladly go to work there.
Tld
Waffles Brah.
To believe that the grander intentions of AAG management's desire to maximize profits has much to do with what one labor group did or didn't ratify is narcissistic and ignorant. On the souless road to make money, Envoy's pilot group is merely one speed bump, just one variable....akin to the removal of one olive on a first class salad. We are numbers, no more no less. I am an olive here....now where's the Gin?
Soku39
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Eaglevoy not wholly owned by AA, thus making them wholly owned by AAG as well?
motormadness24
Well-Known Member
But but but but....they're scabs!!!
That's probably the most made up definition in this industry over the past 14 months.
