AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA

BobDDuck said:
It would actually be very expensive to do. Keep in mind, if you give longevity you are also giving 401k matching, vacation and sick time accrual rates.

Back in 2007 (or maybe 2008), prior to the current FFD workgroup, PSA's MEC spearheaded an effort, that eventually led to USEPA, to try to limit the whipsawing of aircraft back and forth. At the time we were watching CMR tails get placed at ASA and Skywest for Delta flying. In order to prevent something like that from happening within the USAirways system the goal was to work with the US Express Carriers to a) harmonize the contracts so that, longevity aside, it would cost the same to operate an aircraft at any of the properties and b) work on seniority portability so that a pilot group would migrate with their planes, keeping longevity and possibly seniority. While everybody at the meetings was interested in the first part, we pretty much got laughed out of the room (including by the Eagle MEC who was at one of the meetings) for even bringing up the second part. It ended up costing the MEC Chairman his position because it was spun that he was trying to give Mesa pilots left seats at PSA.

Interesting how things change over time.
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But but but...... :)

Yeah instead Xjet MEC puts an email saying how Xjet supports Envoy and their first year pilots make more? Wtf does that have to do with this and secondly it's false.....

Minus insurance going up I honestly can't recall PSA being too awful while we were there and we sat many years of RSV with the old contract without the current improvements in which haven't been changed...
 
So everyone who has been hanging out as an FO should make the jump to PSA and they will be captain in a year?
 
TWP said:
So everyone who has been hanging out as an FO should make the jump to PSA and they will be captain in a year?
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until something happens or you miss the wave and the upgrade stops and you are stuck for 6 years as an FO


Did I mention the raises stop at year 4 for the FO?


Do whatever you want, but every "quick upgrade" regional goes from a year to several years at the drop of a hat.

I've flown with captain who had guys in their new hire class upgrade in 11 months, and they took 6 years. They just happened to not quite make that cut when upgrades stopped.


Money aside, would you rather be the plug and not exactly work very much at high pay rate, or hold a great FO line and get a little less?

The one captain I'm talking about with the 6 year upgrade said he isn't even 1000 hours behind his classmate on tpic because for those 5 years we were so bloated with staffing the reserves hardly got used.



Just another point of view, carry on.
 
elmetal said:
until something happens or you miss the wave and the upgrade stops and you are stuck for 6 years as an FO


Did I mention the raises stop at year 4 for the FO?


Do whatever you want, but every "quick upgrade" regional goes from a year to several years at the drop of a hat.

I've flown with captain who had guys in their new hire class upgrade in 11 months, and they took 6 years. They just happened to not quite make that cut when upgrades stopped.


Money aside, would you rather be the plug and not exactly work very much at high pay rate, or hold a great FO line and get a little less?

The one captain I'm talking about with the 6 year upgrade said he isn't even 1000 hours behind his classmate on tpic because for those 5 years we were so bloated with staffing the reserves hardly got used.



Just another point of view, carry on.
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Ya well when you need to start over would you rather go for the gusto and get TPIC time or play it safe at a mega regional that will be next on the chopping block? Not saying I support PSA but that is the reality these days.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Ya well when you need to start over would you rather go for the gusto and get TPIC time or play it safe at a mega regional that will be next on the chopping block? Not saying I support PSA but that is the reality these days.
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If you're having to start over it's a rough choice. Do you really want to join the group of guys who, through their actions, cost you your job?

I understand mouths to feed but if you cost me my job, I would never engage in conversation with you much less join your company.

Fact of the matter is, sure a ton of guys voted no, but all the new hires hired since have effectively voted yes by agreeing to the agreement. That means WELL over 50% of PSAers are effectively yes voters, no thanks.
 
Derg said:
Remember, the people with money decide where their assets go.

We're all pawns in someone else's chess game.

Side A: Don't gloat.

Side B: Don't worry.

It's not personal.
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I agree. The problem is when pilot groups help them make their decisions.
 
elmetal said:
If you're having to start over it's a rough choice. Do you really want to join the group of guys who, through their actions, cost you your job?

I understand mouths to feed but if you cost me my job, I would never engage in conversation with you much less join your company.

Fact of the matter is, sure a ton of guys voted no, but all the new hires hired since have effectively voted yes by agreeing to the agreement. That means WELL over 50% of PSAers are effectively yes voters, no thanks.
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You are absolutely right it is a rough choice. But I bet even those people who go to PSA will unfortunately get to mainline before someone holding the line elsewhere. Until you get a job where the paint matches the paycheck you need to stack the cards in your favor and TPIC time does just that. I personally would never go to PSA but I don't necessarily blame those who go, because lets be honest, who has a better chance at getting that dream gig? A PSA new hire or a Skywest new hire? That's what is important to most people. People make the excuse that chasing upgrades never work yada yada yada but it has been the mantra for years. The past years of stagnation proved for a brief period of time that it doesn't work but we're back to business as usual IMO.
 
and that very well may be. But I will never support a group of pilots (or a company) who knowingly put families on the street.

I'll gladly take my number and hope the eagle guys get to the majors before I do. Y'all may think it's stupid, but I have no qualms taking a little longer to get to the majors just because my morals will not allow me to support PSA.

The race means nothing to me. These people's families do.



But what do I know, I'm just a new guy.
 
Maurus said:
I agree. The problem is when pilot groups help them make their decisions.
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How?

If Delta wants to move the 717's to Malaysian Airlines, it's a foregone conclusion. And they're certainly going to do their best to extract value from their cost of doing business along the way. It's what the shareholders want. They just want their share value to "pop" a bit so they can offload some shares.

Maybe I'm a little jaded this morning, but labor having total control over what "money" decides to do with airplanes is a "The Matrix"-like construct.

I do think, however, we all need to put our big boy pants on and discuss it rationally without the vitriol. Lots of folks are watching how PSA and Envoy pilots handle this situation, the same way people watched how Comair handled its coup de gras moment.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
They don't care about any individual pilots - the point of this exercise is to lower the aggregate marginal cost per employee. My employer does exactly the same thing. Once we have a contract in place to staff 300 widgets (not airplanes), we look at how to shift widget operations to wholly owned subsidiaries or contractors with lower pay.

An air carrier can only sustain that model when it is growing though. 5 years from now, the same shell game will be attempted again, and it will likely work. Even if pilots voted with their feet at the growing but cheaper operation - that still lowers overall labor cost....
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All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
They don't care about any individual pilots - the point of this exercise is to lower the aggregate marginal cost per employee. My employer does exactly the same thing. Once we have a contract in place to staff 300 widgets (not airplanes), we look at how to shift widget operations to wholly owned subsidiaries or contractors with lower pay.

An air carrier can only sustain that model when it is growing though. 5 years from now, the same shell game will be attempted again, and it will likely work. Even if pilots voted with their feet at the growing but cheaper operation - that still lowers overall labor cost....
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In pilot words, the same guys who may be burning their bridges on either side of the debate are going to have to probably cross it again down the road? That's old guy perspective, isn't it? :)
 
Derg said:
How?

If Delta wants to move the 717's to Malaysian Airlines, it's a foregone conclusion. And they're certainly going to do their best to extract value from their cost of doing business along the way. It's what the shareholders want. They just want their share value to "pop" a bit so they can offload some shares.

Maybe I'm a little jaded this morning, but labor having total control over what "money" decides to do with airplanes is a "The Matrix"-like construct.

I do think, however, we all need to put our big boy pants on and discuss it rationally without the vitriol. Lots of folks are watching how PSA and Envoy pilots handle this situation, the same way people watched how Comair handled its coup de gras moment.
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When I was younger and angrier, I thought that the purpose of labor was to strand strong against all logic, because we would only find unity in strength, and we would only move forwward through unity.

As I've gotten older, I've realized that this is not the purpose off labor.

We decry scabs because they infringe upon our legal rights, and pilots at PSA do not fit this bill.

PSA pilots did NOTHING but look after themselves, at their company, and voted in their own self interest. The labor movement is here to PROVIDE that opportunity, for us to have a voice in what our employers will do with us. It allows us to negotiate our demise or our success. The labor movement is not here to bully other union members because we don't agree with the democratic decisions that they've made.

But criticising others because they have chosen to negotiate their future success is juvinile. Do people get pissed when GM makes a new car for less than Ford, partially because their UAW barganing unit did the job for a few bucks less than Ford? No, of course not, that concept would be absurd.

Want a better career? Go make one, don't just complain on the internet about it. Your union will be here to help with that process, but that's all it can do; in the end labor is simply another actor in a long list of participants in the marketplace.
 
Derg said:
Move up the food chain.

If you can't at this point, be creative and create opportunity.

Otherwise, aren't we all just rasslin' over the last few sauce packets at Taco Bell?
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Exactly. I get a good chuckle out of the guys saying they won't go here or there because that pilot group is crap.

It's the same principle as Cooperate, Graduate. Stay out of regional politics. Play the game, boost your resume, move up the food chain.

And stay positive. A positive attitude will carry you far in this career.
 
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