AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA

[roundout]

Good luck. I think there are opportunities out there but you need to move quickly (if staying in flying).

I agree. I'm working on my logbook as we speak, have been for a couple days.

I remember reading a post on here about hiring 600 pilots that year, how amazing the career there was going to be, and I just rolled my eyes. You're never going to see quick upgrades at a 2500 pilot group. XJT, ASA, SkyW, Eagle, Republic. All the quick upgrades happened when they were themselves in growth mode.

eye rolling aside, I believe they did hire 600ish in 2011, or at least were on pace to before the bankruptcy, which was in late November. 40 every 2 weeks at the beginning of the year.

 

[roundout]

As an outsider to the 121 industry, I never understood the attraction of flow as bait for wanting to be hired at this airline or that for exactly the reason you point out. Such flow was going to only happen to such a small fraction of guys, and "everyone else" would just be going through the normal apply-interview hiring process.

I guess the same folks that get taken in by "guaranteed interview!!" ads for pilot mills also fall for flow in the contract.

It's not, except for the ill-informed. Our union did a survey on this with a bunch of new hire classes when negotiating for the failed 175 TA. Their conclusion was that flow was less important than pay and a stable future, which is what they negotiated for. You can see how the company reacted. The company was touting the flow as the carrot to take a (second) concessionary contract on the premise that you'd suffer now for a guaranteed job later. The failed agreement capped F/O pay at step 4, but they said "nobody will get to step 4 because you'd upgrade by then!" Possibly true, but incredibly optimistic. People did the math and realized that the flow wasn't going to get them to a major faster. The flow is a tool used by the company to keep you at a regional longer, not get you to a major faster.

They probably could have sold the deal had they approached it differently. There's no faster way to get 1500 F/O's riled up than to ask them to finance the purchase of new airplanes. Doug Parker makes more in a day than an F/O makes in a year. Minor changes would have gotten the agreement passed, but AAG was unwilling. Our MEC just a couple weeks ago went to the company with their lowest acceptable offer (poor poker players, perhaps, but it appeared that they were really trying to get a deal passed) and AAG was unwilling to budge on most of the hot button items. So that tells us that the company wasn't interested in getting a deal done for anything other than locking Envoy in to a 10 year rock bottom deal. When things didn't go their way, they picked up their toys and left the sandbox.

Like I said, only the truly naive voted no on this deal thinking that things would just magically work out by the goodness of the hearts of AAG management.

 

[jynxyjoe]

As an outsider to the 121 industry, I never understood the attraction of flow as bait for wanting to be hired at this airline or that for exactly the reason you point out. Such flow was going to only happen to such a small fraction of guys, and "everyone else" would just be going through the normal apply-interview hiring process.

I guess the same folks that get taken in by "guaranteed interview!!" ads for pilot mills also fall for flow in the contract.

Oh when I had the Northwest flow, then a Delta flow, I completely expected to get picked up by someone else. However, the flow kept a constant attrition on top of the list and if the top 30% said screw it, I'd have had the flow in a couple years, either way a pilot with a flow wins.

What remained of the flows was the only thing that kept me stagnant, instead of falling down the seniority list, a year back. Flows have great utility, but the pay has to be there. At the time, Mesaba had great pay, great QOL, and no matter what you'd see 12 guys leave a month for NWA or Delta, while the rest tried for Alaskan, SWA, United, 'Murican

 

[jynxyjoe]

Oh when I had the Northwest flow, then a Delta flow, I completely expected to get picked up by someone else. However, the flow kept a constant attrition on top of the list and if the top 30% said screw it, I'd have had the flow in a couple years, either way a pilot with a flow wins.

What remained of the flows was the only thing that kept me stagnant, instead of falling down the seniority list, a year back. Flows have great utility, but the pay has to be there. At the time, Mesaba had great pay, great QOL, and no matter what you'd see 12 guys leave a month for NWA or Delta, while the rest tried for Alaskan, SWA, United, 'Murican

To be clear, Endeavor doesn't have a flow, Mesaba did and a few guys got to keep it.

 

[Inverted]

Despite all the happy happy joy joy kumbaya around the campfire that I'm seeing about how PSA shouldn't be hated on it seems pretty scummy to me. (Looking in from very much the outside)

Why shouldn't they be hated on? Didn't they VOTE on this? The race to the bottom continues.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Also it can be used as a pawn to get you to agree to lower wages. A la what AAG is doing to Envoy. "Voted no? Well F you then. We'll take "your" planes and give them to XYZ".

Yes, but this is the regionals who are flying for other airlines. That FFD world depends on who can do it cheaper.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Firstly , Mesaba, Eagle, Asa, got paid more than skywest.

As for the rest, I don't think your able to keep up, chug some water and watch some football then try again.

Mesaba who? They don't exist. Skywest does. I don't know how long you've been in the regional game but at least since 2007, Skywest has been in the lead. But what does it matter anymore. The regional model is broke and is being harshly corrected. You don't really score any points for saying you can't argue with someone who knows everything. I wish. If I knew everything I would have played the winning lottery numbers and retired years ago.

Firstly this doesn't stop mainline from swapping planes, stop being obtuse.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Mesaba who? They don't exist. Skywest does. I don't know how long you've been in the regional game but at least since 2007, Skywest has been in the lead. But what does it matter anymore. The regional model is broke and is being harshly corrected. You don't really score any points for saying you can't argue with someone who knows everything. I wish. If I knew everything I would have played the winning lottery numbers and retired years ago.

What in God's name? In every single measurement the contract value (the amount given to pilots with hard pay and soft pay combined) of Mesaba exceeded that of Skywest. In DCI, ASA was the top dog and still is. It may not matter to you, but that's the difference between you and many here, and while you're chided so often.

If you have facts to supply do so.

Analysis of CC on JC:
CC: Make something up.
others: wrong, and here are the facts.
CC: I'm going to answer by circling PRAYING no one notices I'm making up more stuff because I'm wrong AGAIN.
others: Don't be stupid, that's even more wrong.
CC: God I hope they don't figure out I'm really not a troll, I'm just this much of a dolt.
others: You're a dolt.
CC: Glad you admit I'm right. So now that I've proved you wrong because you agreed with me we can move on.
others: What in the name of stupid did you just say? Did I just read that... Am I being trolled? You're a troll aren't you?
CC: Back to Virgin's forums for a while.

So, ALPA can't stop airlines from swapping airplanes from regional to regional. Never could, never can. The best they can hope to do is, you're opinion (not mine), axe any concessionary contract or any contract that doesn't raise the bar. However, present day ALPA can't do that, but you think that needs to be fixed. So you have no solutions, just complaints, and ALPA still can't stop aircraft transfers.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

What in God's name? In every single measurement the contract value (the amount given to pilots with hard pay and soft pay combined) of Mesaba exceeded that of Skywest. In DCI, ASA was the top dog and still is. It may not matter to you, but that's the difference between you and many here, and while you're chided so often.

If you have facts to supply do so.

Analysis of CC on JC:
CC: Make something up.
others: wrong, and here are the facts.
CC: I'm going to answer by circling PRAYING no one notices I'm making up more stuff because I'm wrong AGAIN.
others: Don't be stupid, that's even more wrong.
CC: God I hope they don't figure out I'm really not a troll, I'm just this much of a dolt.
others: You're a dolt.
CC: Glad you admit I'm right. So now that I've proved you wrong because you agreed with me we can move on.
others: What in the name of stupid did you just say? Did I just read that... Am I being trolled? You're a troll aren't you?
CC: Back to Virgin's forums for a while.

Just because you say so doesn't mean you're right.

2007......

http://web.archive.org/web/20071008....com/airlines/major-national-lcc/skywest.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20071012...ilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/mesaba.html

No one else seems to get as butthurt as you. Perhaps cooling off would help?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Just because you say so doesn't mean you're right.

2007......

http://web.archive.org/web/20071008....com/airlines/major-national-lcc/skywest.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20071012...ilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/mesaba.html

No one else seems to get as butthurt as you. Perhaps cooling off would help?

.... You understand you posted pay rates, not actual contract value right? I'll make this super simple for you. The amount that pilots receive in a paycheck, Mesaba pilots for instance, would be higher than Skywest pilots, even if the posted payrates for skywest are higher because of the soft pay from Mesaba's contract.

I'm afraid you either have to find a way to understand the above, and maybe I can explain it a different way to help you, or just float off again while I seriously wonder if you're a troll.

 

[jynxyjoe]

No one else seems to get as butthurt as you. Perhaps cooling off would help?

I'm just doing my FIRC so I've got plenty of time. There's nothing you do that gets my temper up, it's just nailing you down on topics you're making stuff up on is such an old song and dance I'm curt. It's not that I'm angry, but we don't need to build this up, I can simply be direct with you. You know what you're doing. I know what you're doing. I just skip the part where I'm worried you've misunderstood something and just assume you're being a parody of a child, or a clown, or a troll, or suffering from hypoxia.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

.... You understand you posted pay rates, not actual contract value right? I'll make this super simple for you. The amount that pilots receive in a paycheck, Mesaba pilots for instance, would be higher than Skywest pilots, even if the posted payrates for skywest are higher because of the soft pay from Mesaba's contract.

I'm afraid you either have to find a way to understand the above, and maybe I can explain it a different way to help you, or just float off again while I seriously wonder if you're a troll.

No amount of soft time makes up for a banded turboprop/jet FO pay of 24/hr first year and 28/hr second year. I suppose 9E was more pathetic with its pay structure. You cannot make the statements you are making unless you have access to the entire CBA and Skywest pilot agreement from 2007. Assuming you knew your own XJ CBA very well, how would you know what Skywest's soft rules are unless you obtain a copy for study? Or other regional airline CBAs? The kind of comparisons you are talking about you would have to sit down and compare literally section by section, paragraph by paragraph. APC lists payrates, retirement, duty/trip rigs, and per diem. It's about the only comparison available without having a 2007 XJ CBA or a Skywest PWA.

I'm just doing my FIRC so I've got plenty of time. There's nothing you do that gets my temper up, it's just nailing you down on topics you're making stuff up on is such an old song and dance I'm curt. It's not that I'm angry, but we don't need to build this up, I can simply be direct with you. You know what you're doing. I know what you're doing. I just skip the part where I'm worried you've misunderstood something and just assume you're being a parody of a child, or a clown, or a troll, or suffering from hypoxia.

None of those are applicable. I did congrat you on the escape from 9E. Are you at liberty to share your new employer in general? Another regional, LCC, legacy, flight instructor somewhere (FIRC), exited industry?

 

[jynxyjoe]

No amount of soft time makes up for a banded turboprop/jet FO pay of 24/hr first year and 28/hr second year. I suppose 9E was more pathetic with its pay structure. You cannot make the statements you are making unless you have access to the entire CBA and Skywest pilot agreement from 2007. Assuming you knew your own XJ CBA very well, how would you know what Skywest's soft rules are unless you obtain a copy for study? Or other regional airline CBAs? The kind of comparisons you are talking about you would have to sit down and compare literally section by section, paragraph by paragraph. APC lists payrates, retirement, duty/trip rigs, and per diem. It's about the only comparison available without having a 2007 XJ CBA or a Skywest PWA.



None of those are applicable. I did congrat you on the escape from 9E. Are you at liberty to share your new employer in general? Another regional, LCC, legacy, flight instructor somewhere (FIRC), exited industry?

You don't have to do anything (regards to the first paragraph) it's simply scored by ALPA and it's available information but I don't have access to any of it anymore. It's entirely reasonable if you think I'm just waving my hand, but those graphs are easily accessed if anyone reading can find them.

I'm at liberty. I'm at virgin remember? Couldn't live without you in my life and on the boards.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You don't have to do anything (regards to the first paragraph) it's simply scored by ALPA and it's available information but I don't have access to any of it anymore. It's entirely reasonable if you think I'm just waving my hand, but those graphs are easily accessed if anyone reading can find them.

I'm at liberty. I'm at virgin remember? Couldn't live without you in my life and on the boards.

You are not at Virgin, there hasn't been a newhire class since Spring and those guys were pretty much poolies from before Spring. Lying about your employer is uncalled for. We've had a couple pretenders here like TomCatter and it sounds like you are one of them. Or you're disingenuous at best.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You are not at Virgin, there hasn't been a newhire class since Spring and those guys were pretty much poolies from before Spring. Lying about your employer is uncalled for. We've had a couple pretenders here like TomCatter and it sounds like you are one of them. Or you're disingenuous at best.

Yes.... yes... I'm secretly TomCatter. Someone ban me.

Tip your waitress folks we're here all week.

 

[amorris311]

You are not at Virgin, there hasn't been a newhire class since Spring and those guys were pretty much poolies from before Spring. Lying about your employer is uncalled for. We've had a couple pretenders here like TomCatter and it sounds like you are one of them. Or you're disingenuous at best.

I see the whole idea of thinking before you post took an eff day today.

 

[juxtapilot]

When's informational picketing at AAL HQ going to happen? I'll happily stand with my Eagle bro's.

 

[Maurus]

I see the whole idea of thinking before you post took an eff day today.

Only today?

 

[BE19Pilot]

Last I heard TopCatter was at Commutair under the alias, Timmy Martens...

 

[jynxyjoe]

Last I heard TopCatter was at Commutair under the alias, Timmy Martens...

Whoops, is it TopCatter? Whichever, I am him... maybe. And don't say Timmy Martens on the board, we have to forgive him for being a nutjob and you should call him Mr. Martens. Phhhht. No I'm kidding.