AA list is out

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No doubt both you are correct. But, in the interest of that whole "seeing the forest from the trees" saying, wouldn't you also say they killed off Nicolau and paid an 8 year price for it (and as ATN_Pilot so eloquently put it once, contracts are temporary, seniority is forever).

Ultimately, USAPA succeeded in their goal: keep Nic off property. And this new seniority award seems to be a whole lot more "fair" so in the end, USAPA "won" but with a 8 year penalty on contract/pay/QOL issues.
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This is pretty much it. USAPA was a horrible, one side union that created for one goal. But really that chapter is now closed and hopefully after this award we can all get our place in line and move forward.
 
The East guys pushed the nuke as they threatened they would. IDK guys, you win some and you lose some, and USAPA "won" by pushing the button. I wonder how many would do it again considering what it cost them.
 
jynxyjoe said:
The East guys pushed the nuke as they threatened they would. IDK guys, you win some and you lose some, and USAPA "won" by pushing the button. I wonder how many would do it again considering what it cost them.
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That's a good question. The Arbitration Panel stated the following:
The intractable conflict over implementation of the Nicolau Award prevented
East and West Pilots from achieving a merged collective bargaining agreement, and
resulted in both pilot groups continuing to work under inferior contracts. The East and
West Pilots speculate, without persuasive evidentiary support in the record, that US
Air’s profitability would have permitted negotiation of an industry standard contract
even in the absence of the merger.

They are saying that yes, USAPA / East Pilots, by their intransigence denied themselves and the West a merged collective bargaining agreement. However the agreement that management was willing to give, absent a merger, was terrible. The former AWA MEC Chairman called it "woefully inadequate."


In the End an East pilot will say it was worth it and a West pilot will disagree. Nothing new there.
 
99% of AA pilots
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jynxyjoe said:
The East guys pushed the nuke as they threatened they would. IDK guys, you win some and you lose some, and USAPA "won" by pushing the button. I wonder how many would do it again considering what it cost them.
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Considering how many of them are going to be out the door in the next five years after almost a decade of self imposed horrid wages in their final years? Good question.
 
Cruise said:
Please, don't be obtuse. USAPA was formed for one reason...and that was to abrogate the Nic Award. Whether you liked it or not, both parties agreed to arbitration. Then a bunch of children didn't get their way and they took their ball and went home. Hello USAPA...an embarrassment to the profession, not the stalwarts of the profession you're trying to sell.

Regardless, USAPA is dead...good riddance.
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Sorry, it's not that "a bunch of children did not get their way". The top of the USAir East seniority list certainly did very well in the Nic. The reason that the East pilots collectively left ALPA and formed USAPA was because the Nicolau award was so destructive to the careers of a great many pilots that it was the only recourse. Have you read parts of this new decision? Some of the wording is crystal clear in how this panel viewed the destructive nature of the Nic and is the reason they went with a Hybrid integration method:

we are not persuaded that an updated Nicolau Award would fairly and equitably integrate the East and West Pilots as of December 9, 2013. Nor, in our considered judgment would use of a Length of Service method or a Category and Status method, standing alone, fairly and equitably integrate the seniority lists of the East and West pilots. An integration methodology using length of service or longevity as the sole criterion would result in the West Pilots being unable to maintain even their present position on a stovepipe basis. Just as the Nicolau Award no longer reflects the currently applicable equities, it would be inequitable and unfair to impose upon the West Pilots the very method for integration of their seniority with that of the East Pilots that they have consistently rejected and successfully resisted for the last decade. On the other hand, use of a pure Category and Status methodology would give East Pilots inadequate credit for their demonstrably greater “sweat equity” service and no credit at all for the extremely high rate of near term retirement attrition they bring to the table. This not only is analytically unfair, but also fails to account accurately for reasonable and legitimate career expectations of younger pilots.

This panel looks to have done the best they possibly could have and the list looks to be relatively fair.

I'm not going to change your opinion on USAPA and the East, that's fine. To me, however, they have done a great service that ALPA was unable and/or unwilling to perform. They have ensured a little bit more fairness in seniority integrations that can be so crucial to our career and lives.


Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
Sorry, it's not that "a bunch of children did not get their way". The top of the USAir East seniority list certainly did very well in the Nic. The reason that the East pilots collectively left ALPA and formed USAPA was because the Nicolau award was so destructive to the careers of a great many pilots that it was the only recourse. Have you read parts of this new decision? Some of the wording is crystal clear in how this panel viewed the destructive nature of the Nic and is the reason they went with a Hybrid integration method:

we are not persuaded that an updated Nicolau Award would fairly and equitably integrate the East and West Pilots as of December 9, 2013. Nor, in our considered judgment would use of a Length of Service method or a Category and Status method, standing alone, fairly and equitably integrate the seniority lists of the East and West pilots. An integration methodology using length of service or longevity as the sole criterion would result in the West Pilots being unable to maintain even their present position on a stovepipe basis. Just as the Nicolau Award no longer reflects the currently applicable equities, it would be inequitable and unfair to impose upon the West Pilots the very method for integration of their seniority with that of the East Pilots that they have consistently rejected and successfully resisted for the last decade. On the other hand, use of a pure Category and Status methodology would give East Pilots inadequate credit for their demonstrably greater “sweat equity” service and no credit at all for the extremely high rate of near term retirement attrition they bring to the table. This not only is analytically unfair, but also fails to account accurately for reasonable and legitimate career expectations of younger pilots.

This panel looks to have done the best they possibly could have and the list looks to be relatively fair.

I'm not going to change your opinion on USAPA and the East, that's fine. To me, however, they have done a great service that ALPA was unable and/or unwilling to perform. They have ensured a little bit more fairness in seniority integrations that can be so crucial to our career and lives.


Typhoonpilot
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Ummm Nope. They agreed to something, didn't like it, did their own thing instead, screwed over themselves and another pilot group for close to a decade. Not surprising they are stupid enough to think they "won". Again, embarrassment.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Ummm Nope. They agreed to something, didn't like it, did their own thing instead, screwed over themselves and another pilot group for close to a decade. Not surprising they are stupid enough to think they "won". Again, embarrassment.
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Agreed. I was a ramper for US in PHX (legacy HP) during this time frame, and the number of jackass comments heard on the ramp freq. from East pilots along with this sense of superiority they thought they had over the West guys was insane. Obviously I'm a bit biased here, but these guys were the epitome of old grumpy cats. When an East 321 purposefully blew over a couple bag carts after he got pushed after 3 other west flights (he was 4th to call) was when I permanently lost all respect for them.
 
ozziecat35 said:
Agreed. I was a ramper for US in PHX (legacy HP) during this time frame, and the number of jackass comments heard on the ramp freq. from East pilots along with this sense of superiority they thought they had over the West guys was insane. Obviously I'm a bit biased here, but these guys were the epitome of old grumpy cats. When an East 321 purposefully blew over a couple bag carts after he got pushed after 3 other west flights (he was 4th to call) was when I permanently lost all respect for them.
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I commuted on them almost every week for about a year. I started to figure out what were west flight numbers and what were not. Guess what one I would choose more frequently?
 
ozziecat35 said:
Agreed. I was a ramper for US in PHX (legacy HP) during this time frame, and the number of jackass comments heard on the ramp freq. from East pilots along with this sense of superiority they thought they had over the West guys was insane. Obviously I'm a bit biased here, but these guys were the epitome of old grumpy cats. When an East 321 purposefully blew over a couple bag carts after he got pushed after 3 other west flights (he was 4th to call) was when I permanently lost all respect for them.
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You're an idiot if you think that was something they did purposefully.
 
All you guys bashing the east think you're so high and mighty. It's easy to judge and throw stones when you weren't a part of it and it wasn't your career that was devastated. I'm sure if you got screwed you'd be fine with it, right?
 
Everyone picks their side and finds ways to affirm their view as they go along. Both sides have there a-holes and most of both sides are great. The east and west battle will hopefully slide away into history.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
All you guys bashing the east think you're so high and mighty. It's easy to judge and throw stones when you weren't a part of it and it wasn't your career that was devastated. I'm sure if you got screwed you'd be fine with it, right?
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Pay comes and goes. Bases come and go. Equipment comes and go. Seniority can come and go.

Integrity is forever. The folks who moved to create USAPA have none.
 
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