AA hiring rate and Envoy flow rant

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You do realize that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't just apply to the American justice system? Or do you have a problem with that too?

Sharia law isn't for everyone.

Where did that come from? Where did I ever say anything in support of Sharia?

Innocent until proven guilty works in a justice system when you are accused of a crime. Not when it comes to a private employer, where you can be hired or fired "with or without cause." Has absolutely nothing to do innocent til proven guilty. Now for those airlines with pilot CBAs, then yes, there is a process spelled out that the company and the pilots have to follow. There is no judge and jury system for innocent until proven guilty for an employer; at best you'll get an arbitration hearing to see if your firing was just/un-just and if you should be reinstated with/without backpay.

IMO, you just wanted to take an Islamic jab in a situation that totally did not warrant it in terms of relevance. For that, you are a fail.


Edit: I just saw you are cencal. So no surprise there.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

So your hoping that a reinterviewing will fend them off?

Does it strike anyone else as weird the biggest complaint is "they'll hire someone who is a jerk?" It's work, jerks work too. Do your best around them and pray they do something stupid to get fired, and the company isn't playing lazy that day because they're all chest deep in putting out whatever fire they started.

There's a difference in being someone that not everybody gets along with versus being an ass just to be an ass to damn near everybody. There's no reason for those functional psychopaths to be able to terrorize their first officers. They create a dangerous work environment, and that's every bit as bad as being a bad stick. In fact, bad CRM is worse than being a bad stick in my opinion.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Where did that come from? Where did I ever say anything in support of Sharia?

Innocent until proven guilty works in a justice system when you are accused of a crime. Not when it comes to a private employer, where you can be hired or fired "with or without cause." Has absolutely nothing to do innocent til proven guilty. Now for those airlines with pilot CBAs, then yes, there is a process spelled out that the company and the pilots have to follow. There is no judge and jury system for innocent until proven guilty for an employer; at best you'll get an arbitration hearing to see if your firing was just/un-just and if you should be reinstated with/without backpay.

IMO, you just wanted to take an Islamic jab in a situation that totally did not warrant it in terms of relevance. For that, you are a fail.

Just to make sure then, you revoke your earlier statement of

Another union problem. You should not protect those who deserve to be fired and/or are downright dangerous. The flying public deserves better than to preserve some random seniority number.

because you agree those pilots deserve an opportunity to have the same fair review any other pilot would get. Your solution to hiring and firing is a little subjective and vigilante. Sharia may be harsh, but I can see the echo's of parallel.

 

[jynxyjoe]

There's a difference in being someone that not everybody gets along with versus being an ass just to be an ass to damn near everybody. There's no reason for those functional psychopaths to be able to terrorize their first officers. They create a dangerous work environment, and that's every bit as bad as being a bad stick. In fact, bad CRM is worse than being a bad stick in my opinion.

Psychopaths is probably an unfortunate choice of words since you'll probably not see that referred to anymore. Sociopaths worm their way into every walk of life and it's up to pro stands and the company to do something about it. Even so, no work environment is perfect and you'll have to put up with those people in your life.

Talk to pro stands and then go above their head if needed. We had a young man that we couldn't get a hold on until a bunch of FO's were being furloughed and they finally all got together, just under 12 of them, wrote letters to the union and CP declaring their concerns, and the CA was busted down to FO so fast his head spun. He spent years in mentoring and anger management and got better from all appearances. I've seen worse than that go to Delta through the SSP, and Delta is very thorough. The problem with sociopaths is, you won't even know they are there until you are good friends with them and realize, holy crap, this guy's been faking emotions for years. It's hard for HR or anyone to wring that out of someone. That's life.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Just to make sure then, you revoke your earlier statement of

because you agree those pilots deserve an opportunity to have the same fair review any other pilot would get. Your solution to hiring and firing is a little subjective and vigilante. Sharia may be harsh, but I can see the echo's of parallel.

Review? Sure. But should they be fired if they are downright dangerous? Absolutely. The flying public deserves better. It works wonderfully in the corporate gigs. No corporate flight department will keep them employed if they are d-bags. It has nothing do with an unjust system. In fact, a MAJORITY of Americans are under what is called "at will" employment, which means either the employee or employer can end employment, with or without cause.

Sharia is absolutely irrelevant, and cencal is a known bigot when it comes to Islam. Not sure what his fetish is with Sharia, but he's into it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Review? Sure. But should they be fired if they are downright dangerous? Absolutely. The flying public deserves better. It works wonderfully in the corporate gigs. No corporate flight department will keep them employed if they are d-bags. It has nothing do with an unjust system. In fact, a MAJORITY of Americans are under what is called "at will" employment, which means either the employee or employer can end employment, with or without cause.

Sharia is absolutely irrelevant, and cencal is a known bigot when it comes to Islam. Not sure what his fetish is with Sharia, but he's into it.

You don't understand the disciplinary process then, if you think that people who are dangerous keep their jobs. You aren't doing your job in correcting them or referring them to professional standards so that the ball can roll in the direction of corrective action or final discipline.

By the way: You are called out because every which way you turn, you complain about this country, including "unions", of which you have little to no understanding.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Review? Sure. But should they be fired if they are downright dangerous? Absolutely. The flying public deserves better. It works wonderfully in the corporate gigs. No corporate flight department will keep them employed if they are d-bags. It has nothing do with an unjust system. In fact, a MAJORITY of Americans are under what is called "at will" employment, which means either the employee or employer can end employment, with or without cause.

Sharia is absolutely irrelevant, and cencal is a known bigot when it comes to Islam. Not sure what his fetish is with Sharia, but he's into it.

No one is arguing if someone should be fired for "downright dangerous" actions. Let's be factual here, that's not the case with the majority of firings that pass through a grievance dept. The only time I've seen anything close it was a phone call to management saying, "we're just here to make sure the process is fair." The guy was busted down to FO but that was the companies choice, we couldn't believe he got that (last I knew, never was able to upgrade again). There was one possibility of a computer glitch, but I felt like even I could explain that away because I used to fly with the guy, but we were lucky the guy didn't make the news. In that exact circumstance the company made their decision based on a number of factors which had nothing to do with airmenship or history. However, the union doesn't get to fire guys, they did what they could.

I'm afraid we can't change the entire structure of the grievance process because you think one guy slipped away. You're known for being a loudmouth on the Virgin forums, on here, and in crew rooms at your previous employer until your Pinnacle guys went off the reservation and outed you online. I'm not sure how many rocks you wanna be throwing here. We shoot for a process that works the best because there is no perfect system. It appears you agree with the system but are belly-aching over some single circumstance from the past that highlights the entire process in your eyes.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

In fact, bad CRM is worse than being a bad stick in my opinion.

Absolutely!

 

[jynxyjoe]

You don't understand the disciplinary process then, if you think that people who are dangerous keep their jobs. You aren't doing your job in correcting them or referring them to professional standards so that the ball can roll in the direction of corrective action or final discipline.

By the way: You are called out because every which way you turn, you complain about this country, including "unions", of which you have little to no understanding.

To you and to anyone reading, CC is an example of The Dunning-Kruger Effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias manifesting in two principal ways: unskilled individuals tend to suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate, while highly skilled individuals tend to rate their ability lower than is accurate. In unskilled individuals, this bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]

When you keep this in perspective it's less frustrating reading his non-sense. There's a mixture of something else in there, I've never been able to nail down.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Psychopaths is probably an unfortunate choice of words since you'll probably not see that referred to anymore. Sociopaths worm their way into every walk of life and it's up to pro stands and the company to do something about it. Even so, no work environment is perfect and you'll have to put up with those people in your life.

Talk to pro stands and then go above their head if needed. We had a young man that we couldn't get a hold on until a bunch of FO's were being furloughed and they finally all got together, just under 12 of them, wrote letters to the union and CP declaring their concerns, and the CA was busted down to FO so fast his head spun. He spent years in mentoring and anger management and got better from all appearances. I've seen worse than that go to Delta through the SSP, and Delta is very thorough. The problem with sociopaths is, you won't even know they are there until you are good friends with them and realize, holy crap, this guy's been faking emotions for years. It's hard for HR or anyone to wring that out of someone. That's life.

I agree. Mostly I'm talking about ONE particular dude at ASA who everybody knows is a jerk, and should have been run out on a rail decades ago. The problem in many cases is that the company's take is, "Yeah he's a jerk to everybody, but he does his job." Isn't part of being a pilot creating a safe CRM environment?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No one is arguing if someone should be fired for "downright dangerous" actions. Let's be factual here, that's not the case with the majority of firings that pass through a grievance dept. The only time I've seen anything close it was a phone call to management saying, "we're just here to make sure the process is fair." The guy was busted down to FO but that was the companies choice, we couldn't believe he got that (last I knew, never was able to upgrade again). There was one possibility of a computer glitch, but I felt like even I could explain that away because I used to fly with the guy, but we were lucky the guy didn't make the news. In that exact circumstance the company made their decision based on a number of factors which had nothing to do with airmenship or history. However, the union doesn't get to fire guys, they did what they could.

I'm afraid we can't change the entire structure of the grievance process because you think one guy slipped away. You're known for being a loudmouth on the Virgin forums, on here, and in crew rooms at your previous employer until your Pinnacle guys went off the reservation and outed you online. I'm not sure how many rocks you wanna be throwing here. We shoot for a process that works the best because there is no perfect system. It appears you agree with the system but are belly-aching over some single circumstance from the past that highlights the entire process in your eyes.

Loud mouth? You clearly haven't seen Virgin forums then. The top loud guys there are CAs and they have their own issues which I'd rather stay out of. I also kept as much as possible to myself in crew rooms (and yeah I saw cencal there and talked one a couple occasions) but to say 'loudmouth' is inaccurate. You have never met me, and your opinion is based solely on internet forums on JC and APC and through quite a few at XJ and 9L who again have not flown with me, because I left before the jumping across certificates started. But that is a moot point.

You don't understand the disciplinary process then, if you think that people who are dangerous keep their jobs. You aren't doing your job in correcting them or referring them to professional standards so that the ball can roll in the direction of corrective action or final discipline.

By the way: You are called out because every which way you turn, you complain about this country, including "unions", of which you have little to no understanding.

Complain about this country? You mean, what exactly? Politics and unions? I understand unions and have worked at your previous employer under the same set of rules.

Through the PMs I've had with jynxjoe, he's ersonally asked me to back off cencal which leads me to think this is nothing more than two buddy-buddy ganging up. You are free to your opinions, but do not label me as some sort of American hater or Sharia law implementer. That is so far off the base / off topic, it's ridiculous.

 

[Gonzo]

So your hoping that a reinterviewing will fend them off?

Yes because as I have posted 100x regional airlines hire logbooks and mainline airlines hire people. Mesa is hiring over the phone, TSA will take anyone. You don't interview for most regional jobs you fog a mirror.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree. Mostly I'm talking about ONE particular dude at ASA who everybody knows is a jerk, and should have been run out on a rail decades ago. The problem in many cases is that the company's take is, "Yeah he's a jerk to everybody, but he does his job." Isn't part of being a pilot creating a safe CRM environment?

You're asking good questions, but the union and the pilots don't decide HR problems. I can tell you if everyone wrote a letter who had a problem with him it would be documented and you could force the issue.

I just don't like seeing the union blamed for the company deciding to keep guys is all.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Yes because as I have posted 100x regional airlines hire logbooks and mainline airlines hire people. Mesa is hiring over the phone, TSA will take anyone. You don't interview for most regional jobs you fog a mirror.

Fair enough. Mesa and TSA don't have flows though right? Groups that had the flow, Eagle, Mesaba, Compass, there wasn't a fog the mirror test. Right?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

To you and to anyone reading, CC is an example of The Dunning-Kruger Effect.


When you keep this in perspective it's less frustrating reading his non-sense. There's a mixture of something else in there, I've never been able to nail down.

Oh no, I have the Diane Kruger Effect. I knew something was wrong with me after 'Inglorious Basterds' was over.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

You're asking good questions, but the union and the pilots don't decide HR problems. I can tell you if everyone wrote a letter who had a problem with him it would be documented and you could force the issue.

I just don't like seeing the union blamed for the company deciding to keep guys is all.

I'm not blaming the union. I'm blaming the company for not working to remove guys like that, and the union for not insisting that they do.

I agree that if everyone wrote a letter it would probably change things.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm not blaming the union. I'm blaming the company for not working to remove guys like that, and the union for not insisting that they do.

I agree that if everyone wrote a letter it would probably change things.

+1

 

[jynxyjoe]

Loud mouth? You clearly haven't seen Virgin forums then. The top loud guys there are CAs and they have their own issues which I'd rather stay out of. I also kept as much as possible to myself in crew rooms (and yeah I saw cencal there and talked one a couple occasions) but to say 'loudmouth' is inaccurate. You have never met me, and your opinion is based solely on internet forums on JC and APC and through quite a few at XJ and 9L who again have not flown with me, because I left before the jumping across certificates started. But that is a moot point.



Complain about this country? You mean, what exactly? Politics and unions? I understand unions and have worked at your previous employer under the same set of rules.

Through the PMs I've had with jynxjoe, he's ersonally asked me to back off cencal which leads me to think this is nothing more than two buddy-buddy ganging up. You are free to your opinions, but do not label me as some sort of American hater or Sharia law implementer. That is so far off the base / off topic, it's ridiculous.

I've met you, you just don't remember it. I haven't flown with you though. I think it's funny how you remember this because I still have the PM that YOU started. Re read april 13th 2013. I simply replied telling you to stop trying to sleuth people, outing people, and stop the madness you create around you.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm blaming the union for not insisting that they do.

You agree with the above though right? I don't know what you think the union insisting on anything is going to do.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Some are competent pilots, but such complete and utter asses that they create a dangerous CRM environment. It's hard to fire them because they haven't done anything "wrong" other than being jerks.

Trust me, I've seen people get fired for being jerks. It just takes a paper trail.