AA canceled flights

[derg]

Nark -

Largely "white collar" jobs which aren't typically unionized.

Now if there was a lot of non-finance, non-engineering related jobs, more like "blue collar", like transportation, construction, etc, I'd see your point.

 

[Nark]

Mr. Douglas there is blue collar companies on the list. Look at the construction companies, and grocers, hospitals etc... The list has many blue collar jobs on there. Even union organized employee's, but not many.

And of course Southwest; If God needed to go from Chicago to Phoenix, MDW would be his choice...

They, like WestJet and JetBlue have discovered a secret in workforce: Customer's, employee's, manager's. You need all three.

A large section of both managers and employees don't realize this.

 

[ClearedToThe]

Right, because management is completely innocent here. Do they not teach responsibility in MBA school?

Given the changing policies at AA pilots have to work under and the increased scrtuiny from their own company, the public and the FAA I can't say I blame them for following each manual and every policy to the letter right now. As I'm sure you know, doing this and running an on time operation don't mix well. I doubt the pilots have malicious intent but their actions clearly say they'd rather protect themselves and risk losing their jobs, potentially sending their company into the ground than capitulate to the idiocy they've worked under for so many years. That says a lot given how long most of those guys have been there.

I don't advocate illegal job action and I'll be the first to admit unions don't always handle things as well as they could. Between companies using Ch. 11 like a mulligan and the RLA, pilots aren't even fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. We're more like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail after he's lost all his limbs.

You can't crap all over your labor, take huge bonuses, poorly run the company, then expect your employees to bail you out and be surprised when things don't go so well. Likewise, as labor, we can't try and screw the company and nickel and dime the operation and act surprised when the contracts of the late 90s aren't offered to us at the negotiating table.

I never said the AA management wasn't at fault. Far from it. They are very much to blame here and they should take responsibility. Bonuses and the like would certainly be uncalled for imo. My point is that pilot actions that cause the company to lose even more money while selling less tickets is a recipe for disaster. If they are not careful they could be the next eastern airlines.

 

[wheelsup]

You have to be a moron not to see that the APA is advocating a 'sickout.'

Pilots are very short-sighted individuals. Airline pilots seem to be more so.

Look at the work ethic of employee's at successful companies; outside aviation as well. There is a mutual understanding of how success works.
Funny how I don't see airlines on here; nor are the top ones Unionized...

My wife works for a company in the top 20. I can tell you her relationship with her employer is significantly different than that of mine even though I make more money. She is completely trusted with a credit card spending hundreds of thousands. They give her $50 and $100 gift cards every so often (couple times a quarter it seems lately) for going above and beyond and send her to spas free on the company. They go out to eat every week sometimes several times a week, on the company.

She has gotten roughly a 50% raise over the last 2 years. I've been told for the last 7 that I'm too expensive.

Now, compare that to my management. When I called in fatigued after flying 13 hours (not duty day, but operating) due to a crappy ass hotel with jack hammers going at 6 AM I was not only docked of my pay for the next day (they chose the hotel) but also deducted 4:10 of pay because I was deemed "unavailable". Over $800 lost. They sent me "positive space" on a plane 5 hours later to overnight in domicile of around 9.5 hours to start another trip with a 6 am show.

The *only time* I have ever gotten a "thank you" from management was when I wrote up an email about going around...think about that...I screw up and I get a "good job".

You seriously cannot even start comparing the top companies to work for to most airlines and the management labor relationship.

 

[MikeD]

A crap sandwich all around, it seems. That sucks for such a proud airline with a long history.

 

[derg]

A crap sandwich all around, it seems. That sucks for such a proud airline with a long history.

I know.

"In Good Company", with Dennis Quaid and Topher Grace is a movie that personifies what's wrong in the airline business. And it's NOT even about the airline business!

 

[WacoFan]

Weird, you would think Apple would be on that list.

I've never heard, from anyone in the know, that Apple was a really warm, fuzzy place to work. Apple isn't in the "fun place to work" business.

I read an interview with the CEO of Exxon. It was in Fortune so it had a "warm, fuzzy" question - something about "How do you get young people to come to work and retain them? Do you create a fun atmosphere?". Tillerson replied "We aren't in the fun business, we are in the profit business. We pay them a good amount of money and they come to work". How's that for new-age management technique!!!

 

[MikeD]

I know.

To give an example of the cool history of AA, I have a pic I need to find and post here.

AA has a long history of serving PHX and TUS.....at one time, them and Western being the two big airlines at these destinations. Anyhow, here at KTUS, AA mainline has two gates. AA's on-site maintenance people here drive a 1964 Ford F100 pickup as the flightline maintenance vehicle. That truck was purchased new from a Ford dealership in Tucson by American as a flightline maintenance truck, and has served it's whole life there at KTUS doing that role. It's painted in the standard blue body/white top paintjob, however it has the retro orange-colored AA logos from the 1960s and "American Airlines" in the retro '60s block lettering on it. Pretty cool truck, its driven by the station maintenance guy who has also been there at TUS forever.

 

[MikeD]

I never said the AA management wasn't at fault. Far from it. They are very much to blame here and they should take responsibility. Bonuses and the like would certainly be uncalled for imo. My point is that pilot actions that cause the company to lose even more money while selling less tickets is a recipe for disaster. If they are not careful they could be the next eastern airlines.

There's blame to go all around, I believe. Who knows to what percentage. That corpse can be cut up later, I suppose.

My thing goes with what ClearedToThe is saying: at least get the pax to their destinations. If the pilots need to follow letter of the law due to no contract, etc, or need to get clarification on every little thing in order to ensure their behinds are covered, thats fine. It's what they have to do. But if at all possible, try and get the paying pax to the destination. Regardless of if its an AAdvantage Executive Platinum member, or government contracted passenger, or someone who bought their ticket on Orbitz; those people are your customers. And that goes both for employees as well as for management; both of whom seem to have no problem "killing a hostage" in order to make their point.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I hardly think that's fair. As a non-interested third-party who flies AA for business now and again, I fully support any and all actions by the pilots that are consistent with safety. The RLA is crap, and while I'm no huge fan of unions (I feel that the need for unions still exists, but between labor law and union longevity the unions have generally become corrupt and/or vastly overcomplicated the system), I feel that pilots withholding the "favors" they grant the airline on a daily basis (such as working slightly sick, et al) is absolutely within the dictates of professionalism.

Frankly, airline management across the board seems hell-bent on screwing their pilots on every front. (I could shorten that by saying that "management across the board seems hell-bent on screwing labor") Passengers who are buying tickets on an airline aren't innocent third parties -- they make their choice on a competitive market and pick what benefits them. A friend of mine was talking to me earlier today about buying tickets on AA, even though he knows about the ongoing labor issues. Why? They were $200 cheaper than the alternative.

As far as the airline goes, management broke it, and they alone are responsible. If their employees ARE engaging in a sick-out, it's management's fault for not doing the right thing to keep them happy, and the responsibility falls squarely on their shoulders. (Legal complications aside)

A job is not a gift from a company to an employee -- it is simply a mutually beneficial business arrangement between one entity and another. The company needs the services of the employees, and the employees offer their services for a price to the company. And before people chime in about how the company IS the employees (And therefore by damaging the company, you damage the employees), let me remind the reader that the company doesn't see it that way at all. The company sees itself as a board of directors and a management team, and everyone else is a peon. Loyalty, professionalism, and "doing whatever it takes" for the company are only putting money into the pockets of the executives and slightly increasing shareholder value; the company has no loyalty to you, will lay you off in a heartbeat, will generally not return your professionalism in kind.

-Fox

Mike has a point. You're a business traveler, and I am too, so it doesn't really impact us if a flight gets cancelled - not to the extent of say, someone traveling to their wedding. Just like the Chicago teacher strike where the ones who suffered were the kids.

Not saying the AA folks don't have a right to be upset - I just wouldn't classify their current actions as "professional". But sometimes you have to be unprofessional to get things done, so maybe it'll work for them.

 

[Patrick]

My wife works for a company in the top 20. I can tell you her relationship with her employer is significantly different than that of mine even though I make more money. She is completely trusted with a credit card spending hundreds of thousands. They give her $50 and $100 gift cards every so often (couple times a quarter it seems lately) for going above and beyond and send her to spas free on the company. They go out to eat every week sometimes several times a week, on the company.

She has gotten roughly a 50% raise over the last 2 years. I've been told for the last 7 that I'm too expensive.

Now, compare that to my management. When I called in fatigued after flying 13 hours (not duty day, but operating) due to a crappy ass hotel with jack hammers going at 6 AM I was not only docked of my pay for the next day (they chose the hotel) but also deducted 4:10 of pay because I was deemed "unavailable". Over $800 lost. They sent me "positive space" on a plane 5 hours later to overnight in domicile of around 9.5 hours to start another trip with a 6 am show.

The *only time* I have ever gotten a "thank you" from management was when I wrote up an email about going around...think about that...I screw up and I get a "good job".

You seriously cannot even start comparing the top companies to work for to most airlines and the management labor relationship.

So true. Of all things, there are grocery stores on that list! (Wegman's is my home town grocery store, and boy do I miss it).

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I've never heard, from anyone in the know, that Apple was a really warm, fuzzy place to work. Apple isn't in the "fun place to work" business.

I've worked for more tech companies than I can count, I don't think Apple has ever been a "great place to work." Long hours, very demanding, and the pay isn't that great. Startups can be great to work for, but the pay is usually very low and the hours very long. When they go under, you don't have much to show for it. Which is what happens to most. Good place to be if you are young and no family.

If you are lucky enough to choose a startup that does go public and do well, it isn't like you are winning the lottery necessarily. While you have stock grants in most cases, the company may be diluting the stock before you can ever sell it, so it is hard to know what it is worth.

Don't get me wrong though, tech can be a pretty highly paid gig. Not hard at all to make 150k, but companies only pay that because it is very hard to keep qualified people from going elsewhere.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Weird, you would think Apple would be on that list.

Maybe it can replace Chesapeake that will be off the list shortly.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Nark
Now if there was a lot of non-finance, non-engineering related jobs, more like "blue collar", like transportation, construction, etc, I'd see your point.

ate you saying there is engineering jobs out there? Think a few of us here would disagree with you.

 

[Goonie]

sdfa

 

[FlyingScot]

Not your use of the safety word; Im just referring to how the word gets generally thrown around by any number of people/entities/unions as a "convenience" word, when whats really going on is more than obvious.

I agree people are using the safety/sick concern to inconvenience AMR, which may not be right but what do they have left in their arsenal at this point? Can't say that I blame them. Not that it is necessarily a good idea though with the company struggling on so many levels to ruin its reputation further won't be helping any.

While I believe this is a work action, I think the new work rules would lead to real issues eventually. Now that the work rules are being made up by management as they go along. It would be a matter of time before the extra days, hours or duties take its toll on the pilots in the form of illness, medicine stress, alcohol fatigue or emotion. Maybe the flight crews are just resting up now so they are ready for when it really hits the fan.

 

[FlyingScot]

Weird, you would think Apple would be on that list.

Steve Jobs was famous for making grown men cry or firing someone on an elevator ride. I am assuming that kind of pressure trickles down.

I know my friend working there is very happy.................................................................................... with his paycheck.

 

[killbilly]

Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread....

...a representative of the APA told NPR that this wasn't a sickout. I'm paraphrasing the quote, but he did say that because the airline is under greater scrutiny from the FAA right now, pilots were more inclined to write up aircraft on maintenance issues that they might not ordinarily, because a) they didn't have a contract defining things and b) they did not want to incur the wrath of the FAA at a time which is considered delicate already for management/labor relations.

Thought that was interesting.

 

[mrivc211]

They stirred a hornets nest.

 

[mrivc211]

Real professional. And the only ones affected are the passengers who bought tickets in good faith.

This cancellation and sick-out crap only causes collateral damage, which the union has no problem doing. Their target should be management.....or really, themselves, since they got themselves in this mess. But taking it out on the pax, is akin to me disagreeing with US foreign policy while deployed overseas, and thinking I can just go randomly kill civilians in protest of it.

I agree with you Mike. But let me ask you this: How can the employees "target" management? Laws are written in their favor, they have a get out of jail card, they never act in good faith, and they've created the rules so that you can't hit them back. This is the only way in my opinion