A proposed sick-out?

[jynxyjoe]

I love seeing how 6 months ago everyone was antiPSA and screw them for concessions, this and that.
Mesa is such a bottom feeders new why would you work there.


Now they are both top 3 places to go. In every thread I see.

"You've got to be realistic about these things"

You have to put those thoughts in context. The top tier regional (even though that's a joke in most circles) are DOA. XJT, and Envoy are about to collapse, just waiting to see who sticks a knife in them first. Mesaba is gone; killed off. The industry is shrinking so you as an employee have to ask yourself, "what now?" I had the experience to leave the regional industry, others can't or choose to stay in.

So move forward from that real situation. There are 20k jobs and soon to be 6k or less, so whoever does it cheapest wins (free market). If times were different I'd tell anyone to wait for a good regional, but the times are tough for regional flying. I'd also tell people to wait in line for a Cape Air but most want the jet time.

Three years ago, I honestly though mainline would never take back scope and regionals would continue forever. However I was only half right. Mainline won't take back scope because the fifty seaters are uneconomical and mergers are making large aircraft with less trips more lucrative. Even Delta "negotiated" the 125 50 seater cap, but Delta hs admitted to Endeavor they don't expect to need 100 50 seaters. Once you prise open a market, you expect to see growth enough in that market to run a 717 or a small bus in.

My real suggestion, that I think does thr most good for every pilot, is to wait it out and make 50k or better doing other jobs like I did. Pay back loans, set up a fat savings account, don't buy cars or anything stupid (computers are exceptions), and fall in love, take vacations, snorkle, buy a home, fall in love again.... anyway, ive shared life stories with hundreds and maybe a thousand guys, and theres about 5 that have done it. Guys get into this industry and stick. That's real, and I can't arm wrestle a labor group, so I hope to send guys in a direction that makes sense. Pilots shouldn't fall on swords for each other, because there is no unity. This "profession" is a joke and theres a line out the door to get in. So deal with reality or go get a real job.

 

[MikeD]

I love seeing how 6 months ago everyone was antiPSA and screw them for concessions, this and that.
Mesa is such a bottom feeders new why would you work there.


Now they are both top 3 places to go. In every thread I see.

Its aways been cyclical due to any host of factors, where todays great regional becomes tomorrows crapbag operation, and vice versa. None of the regionals keep one place on the tier for any long amount of time.

 

[elmetal]

Its aways been cyclical due to any host of factors, where todays great regional becomes tomorrows crapbag operation, and vice versa. None of the regionals keep one place on the tier for any long amount of time.

But nothing has changed at PSA. Why was all the concession bashing all of a sudden silenced?

 

[MikeD]

But nothing has changed at PSA. Why was all the concession bashing all of a sudden silenced?

That's a question the guys with more in-the-know would have to answer. Interesting question.

 

[jynxyjoe]

But nothing has changed at PSA. Why was all the concession bashing all of a sudden silenced?

Because the concession bashing talk did nothing, as it always does. The regioanls need to shed more than half the workforce as a whole, of those regional whole 3 are growing. Sometimes after enough polyanna bitching people finally accept reality.

The good news in all this? Mainline is hiring and won't stop for another 10 years. There is no cloud, just a fuzzy haze at base level. You dont have to find a silver lining, just mke your way through the fog.

I had thought regionals would slowly go away as mainline smoothy picked up, but here we are.

 

[jtrain609]

But nothing has changed at PSA. Why was all the concession bashing all of a sudden silenced?

I don't think it's entirely stopped, but the reality is that it was outrageous from the beginning.

PSA pilots might have taken some caps with pay, but it also provided a direct pathway for every single PSA pilot to get to mainline.

And where they took caps in pay, PSA pilots also got some amazing soft time, which matters a whole lot more than hard pay rates. I make more soft time off a simple rig at my current shop than I did with ExpressJet's amazing contract.

There is no reason to hate PSA pilots when they're making decisions that move them forward. That's what a union is supposed to do, move the membership forward, not scream at the top of their lungs on the internet about how they're going to burn their employer to the ground.

PSA pilots will, in the end, have brighter careers than many other regionals, and it's because they made hard choices in order to provide themselves with a pathway to future success.

 

[derg]

But nothing has changed at PSA. Why was all the concession bashing all of a sudden silenced?

The universal answer:

"Because, the Internet".

Just like the sick-out. Who was behind it? What were their real motivations? Did they actually expect it work work? Did they think it was legal? Or was it just a guy with a domain name and a website looking for some click-worthy traffic?

 

[BobDDuck]

I don't think it's entirely stopped, but the reality is that it was outrageous from the beginning.

PSA pilots might have taken some caps with pay, but it also provided a direct pathway for every single PSA pilot to get to mainline.

And where they took caps in pay, PSA pilots also got some amazing soft time, which matters a whole lot more than hard pay rates. I make more soft time off a simple rig at my current shop than I did with ExpressJet's amazing contract.

There is no reason to hate PSA pilots when they're making decisions that move them forward. That's what a union is supposed to do, move the membership forward, not scream at the top of their lungs on the internet about how they're going to burn their employer to the ground.

PSA pilots will, in the end, have brighter careers than many other regionals, and it's because they made hard choices in order to provide themselves with a pathway to future success.

That's pretty much the case. The majority of the bashing was coming from people who actually hadn't even read the language over there and just had heard from a friend about how crappy a contract it was. The fact that people would even say "contract" was a pretty good hint that they had no idea what was up. The Section 6 "contract was signed in May of 2013. The series of LOAs that comprised of the pay caps, the increase in insurance premiums and the enhanced pref hire were signed around the end of the summer or early fall. It wasn't a "contract" that was signed. Just a bunch of LOAs.

Also, the bolded bit... the soft time gains were under the Section 6 negotiations. The LOA bit later on just locked them in for 10 years.

 

[Maurus]

That's pretty much the case. The majority of the bashing was coming from people who actually hadn't even read the language over there and just had heard from a friend about how crappy a contract it was. The fact that people would even say "contract" was a pretty good hint that they had no idea what was up. The Section 6 "contract was signed in May of 2013. The series of LOAs that comprised of the pay caps, the increase in insurance premiums and the enhanced pref hire were signed around the end of the summer or early fall. It wasn't a "contract" that was signed. Just a bunch of LOAs.

Also, the bolded bit... the soft time gains were under the Section 6 negotiations. The LOA bit later on just locked them in for 10 years.

So you are saying the soft pay was in the original contract? That means the LOAs were pure concessions contrary to what you were saying in previous threads. You made it sound like they negotiated the soft pay in with the other concessions in previous posts.


EDIT: Soft pay adds nothing and is no longer an excuse if this is true.

 

[Maurus]

There is no reason to hate PSA pilots when they're making decisions that move them forward. That's what a union is supposed to do, move the membership forward, not scream at the top of their lungs on the internet about how they're going to burn their employer to the ground.

Last I checked the core concept of a "Union" was unity. Being that ALPA is a National Union I would expect the unity to be inclusive of other airlines so they can better everyone rather than one group. Unfortunately the idea of having "regional airlines" still seems like a new concept to ALPA so these shenanigans continue to be a problem.

 

[BobDDuck]

So you are saying the soft pay was in the original contract? That means the LOAs were pure concessions contrary to what you were saying in previous threads. You made it sound like they negotiated the soft pay in with the other concessions in previous posts.

I never said the critical coverage soft pay was in the LOAs. Somebody else may have, but it wasn't me. What they did do was lock in that language (which you can be sure the company would love to get rid of) for 10 years. Also, due to the language written during the contract (not the LOA) the pay hourly pay rates actually go up for each "large" small jet, past the first few. Additionally with each additional 700 and 900 coming on property (and with each 200 that leaves the property) the blended pay rate moves upwards. So, bringing all these larger CRJs on to the property actually increase the hourly pay rate.

Again, I don't disagree the caps are not the greatest thing, but it's not really concessions when your pay goes up is it?

 

[Maurus]

I never said the critical coverage soft pay was in the LOAs. Somebody else may have, but it wasn't me. What they did do was lock in that language (which you can be sure the company would love to get rid of) for 10 years. Also, due to the language written during the contract (not the LOA) the pay hourly pay rates actually go up for each "large" small jet, past the first few. Additionally with each additional 700 and 900 coming on property (and with each 200 that leaves the property) the blended pay rate moves upwards. So, bringing all these larger CRJs on to the property actually increase the hourly pay rate.

Again, I don't disagree the caps are not the greatest thing, but it's not really concessions when your pay goes up is it?

Great, the average hourly rate goes up. However, for every CRJ700 coming on to property there is an Envoy FO missing an upgrade and a new hire at PSA making half of what an established Envoy guy had been making. That is a large loss and the blended rate increases are miniscule in comparison.

Had these concessions not been done there would have been a much higher chance for the Envoy people to have retained these aircraft or at a minimum replaced them with the 175s. Instead we have PDT now looking to do the exact same thing only to make negotiations that much harder for places like RAH, XJT, and Envoy.

I understand that the flying is AAG's to give but there is no doubt that PSA's concession was a big motivator for this massive shift in flying.

Stop trying to sugar coat this and call it what it is. The reason people get riled up is because the PSA folks refuse to call what they did a concession that has had a negative impact on the industry for their own personal gain. Fast upgrades and career progression at the expense of Envoy pilots and everyone else in Section 6 negotiations. Thanks guys.

 

[Maurus]

I never said the critical coverage soft pay was in the LOAs. Somebody else may have, but it wasn't me. What they did do was lock in that language (which you can be sure the company would love to get rid of) for 10 years. Also, due to the language written during the contract (not the LOA) the pay hourly pay rates actually go up for each "large" small jet, past the first few. Additionally with each additional 700 and 900 coming on property (and with each 200 that leaves the property) the blended pay rate moves upwards. So, bringing all these larger CRJs on to the property actually increase the hourly pay rate.

Again, I don't disagree the caps are not the greatest thing, but it's not really concessions when your pay goes up is it?

Great, the average hourly rate goes up. However, for every CRJ700 coming on to property there is an Envoy FO missing an upgrade and a new hire at PSA making half of what an established Envoy guy had been making. That is a large loss and the blended rate increases are miniscule in comparison.

Had these concessions not been done there would have been a much higher chance for the Envoy people to have retained these aircraft or at a minimum replaced them with the 175s. Instead we have PDT now looking to do the exact same thing only to make negotiations that much harder for places like RAH, XJT, and Envoy.

I understand that the flying is AAG's to give but there is no doubt that PSA's concession was a big motivator for this massive shift in flying.

Stop trying to sugar coat this and call it what it is. The reason people get riled up is because the PSA folks refuse to call what they did a concession that has had a negative impact on the industry for their own personal gain. Fast upgrades and career progression at the expense of Envoy pilots and everyone else in Section 6 negotiations. Thanks guys.

 

[ross9238]

Since it was just an announcement to give the CRJs to PSA, what is stopping AAG from telling PSA that there would be changes needed in the contract to get those 47 on property?

 

[jtrain609]

Great, the average hourly rate goes up. However, for every CRJ700 coming on to property there is an Envoy FO missing an upgrade and a new hire at PSA making half of what an established Envoy guy had been making. That is a large loss and the blended rate increases are miniscule in comparison.

Judging by these posts, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what organized labors purpose is, and what the state of the industry is.

Had these concessions not been done there would have been a much higher chance for the Envoy people to have retained these aircraft or at a minimum replaced them with the 175s.

This is inaccurate. It is longevity, not contract costs, that drive overall labor costs at any company. You could give the XJT contract to Compass and they'd STILL be cheaper than XJT because nobody has more than 6 years longevity. You could give the Eagle pilots the GoJets contract, and they'd STILL be one of the most expensive regionals out there. The same applies at XJT, because of the number of people on the top of the list who have been there for so long.

Instead we have PDT now looking to do the exact same thing only to make negotiations that much harder for places like RAH, XJT, and Envoy.

Again, you misunderstand the issue if you think that XJT is going to get a contract. The company has turned into the new America West/US Airways, and I doubt there will ever be a JCBA moving forward. Why impetus does the company have to negotiate contract gains for a pilot group that is quickly disappearing? Aircraft are being parked on both sides, and the result will soon be that XJT will become a shell of its former self.

I understand that the flying is AAG's to give but there is no doubt that PSA's concession was a big motivator for this massive shift in flying.

Or it was that PSA found a way to get the most senior guys off the seniority list and onto the Airways list, thus resetting their longevity back down to year one. But that's ok, right? Because it's a mainline company. It's the exact same concept.

Stop trying to sugar coat this and call it what it is. The reason people get riled up is because the PSA folks refuse to call what they did a concession that has had a negative impact on the industry for their own personal gain. Fast upgrades and career progression at the expense of Envoy pilots and everyone else in Section 6 negotiations. Thanks guys.

 

[Trip7]

Since it was just an announcement to give the CRJs to PSA, what is stopping AAG from telling PSA that there would be changes needed in the contract to get those 47 on property?

Nothing. But since AAG has asked for nothing more, they must be happy with what they received earlier in the LOA.

 

[Maurus]

This is inaccurate. It is longevity, not contract costs, that drive overall labor costs at any company. You could give the XJT contract to Compass and they'd STILL be cheaper than XJT because nobody has more than 6 years longevity. You could give the Eagle pilots the GoJets contract, and they'd STILL be one of the most expensive regionals out there. The same applies at XJT, because of the number of people on the top of the list who have been there for so long.

So why not just give eagle an increased flow and reap the benefits of getting tons of high longevity guys off their respective seniority list rather than have them stick around for the sinking ship. PSA in comparison was so small that they barely have any topped out guys.

Again, you misunderstand the issue if you think that XJT is going to get a contract. The company has turned into the new America West/US Airways, and I doubt there will ever be a JCBA moving forward. Why impetus does the company have to negotiate contract gains for a pilot group that is quickly disappearing? Aircraft are being parked on both sides, and the result will soon be that XJT will become a shell of its former self.

It throws yet another wrench into the equation. There don't have to be gains but it certainly does put downward pressure at the table. Worst part is management can not offer the same career progression.

Or it was that PSA found a way to get the most senior guys off the seniority list and onto the Airways list, thus resetting their longevity back down to year one. But that's ok, right? Because it's a mainline company. It's the exact same concept.

So do what they did without taking the concessions. Same result eh?

In the end PSA knew exactly what the were doing to Envoy when they took the concessions. Management was dangling the planes in front of Eagle first and then moved on when they said no.


Exactly how did the people of this site turn from "Don't chase the upgrade. Go for QOL." To "Abandon ship and chase the upgrade!" Thanks for the advice! Its seems to have served me and other well.

 

[jtrain609]

So why not just give eagle an increased flow and reap the benefits of getting tons of high longevity guys off their respective seniority list rather than have them stick around for the sinking ship. PSA in comparison was so small that they barely have any topped out guys.

Eagle gets an increased flow if they furlough. I think they get 50% of all American classes if one guy gets furloughed. @Gonzo?

It throws yet another wrench into the equation. There don't have to be gains but it certainly does put downward pressure at the table. Worst part is management can not offer the same career progression.

Don't have to be gains? The last contract was cost neutral for the majority of pilots and it went down by 83%.

So do what they did without taking the concessions. Same result eh?

What?

In the end PSA knew exactly what the were doing to Envoy when they took the concessions. Management was dangling the planes in front of Eagle first and then moved on when they said no.


Exactly how did the people of this site turn from "Don't chase the upgrade. Go for QOL." To "Abandon ship and chase the upgrade!" Thanks for the advice! Its seems to have served me and other well.

I thought upgrade didn't matter to you eh?

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Exactly how did the people of this site turn from "Don't chase the upgrade. Go for QOL." To "Abandon ship and chase the upgrade!" Thanks for the advice! Its seems to have served me and other well.

IMO because the game has changed and now it looks like the regionals are shrinking so fast you need to get PIC time and GTFO before it's too late. The majors are hiring FOs but not yet at the rate where it's ok to hang around and hope they'll call average Joe FO before the proactive upgrade chasers who now have PIC time. It's not right but that seems to be reality and can be blamed on numerous reasons.

 

[Trip7]

Exactly how did the people of this site turn from "Don't chase the upgrade. Go for QOL." To "Abandon ship and chase the upgrade!" Thanks for the advice! Its seems to have served me and other well.

Aroo? Many posters on here have noted the benefits of strategic lateral move for quick upgrade.

In your case didn't you already have TPIC time?