A letter to X Airlines, and ALL Regionals for that matter.

[derg]

I understand all that obviously but regional pilots with a 1 to 5 year employment income there are not at your level of income, have not worked as long as you and have not earned what you have in say the last 10 years. I thought that was what we were discussing.

I've been contributing to my 401K continuously since I was a $13,900 new hire 1900 FO.

It's possible, it just the "minimum standard of living" expectation is a lot higher now. I see a lot of new hire RJ FO's with $400 telephones and probably spending at least a quarter of that on cellphone service every month. Drop the smart phone, get a regular cellphone, use Starbucks free internet access (or steal your neighbors) and drop cable, you're talking thousands of dollars in savings every year.

What's more important, Facebook, Candy Crush and Buzzfeed via 4G/LTE for $1200/year, $1200/Year for "Keeping Up with the Kardasians" and $960/year for Cox Cable Ultra Mega Super Duper Cable Internet Access for Gaming or $2,500 in your retirement account at an early age which, through the time value of money, will reap much greater rewards if you're patient?

Our generation is getting butt-raped by monthly fees because we're not thinking in annual costs.

 

[A Life Aloft]

Note: Data are for persons age 25 and over. Earnings are for full-time wage and salary workers.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Does your wife work? Do you have student loan debts? You've managed then to save and with their contributions, 3,333 a year. Considering what you are earning it is good but I find it sad on the other hand that the pay is so terrible.

My wife is a part time dog walker. No student loan debt, but we do have a mortgage, but it's rather reasonable.

 

[derg]

My wife is a part time dog walker. No student loan debt, but we do have a mortgage, but it's rather reasonable.

Say it right, @Screaming_Emu. Part-time dog walker, full time red-headed bow-chicka-bow-bow!

 

[A Life Aloft]

I've been contributing to my 401K continuously since I was a $13,900 new hire 1900 FO.

It's possible, it just the "minimum standard of living" expectation is a lot higher now. I see a lot of new hire RJ FO's with $400 telephones and probably spending at least a quarter of that on cellphone service every month. Drop the smart phone, get a regular cellphone, use Starbucks free internet access (or steal your neighbors) and drop cable, you're talking thousands of dollars in savings every year.

What's more important, Facebook, Candy Crush and Buzzfeed via 4G/LTE for $1200/year, $1200/Year for "Keeping Up with the Kardasians" and $960/year for Cox Cable Ultra Mega Super Duper Cable Internet Access for Gaming or $2,500 in your retirement account at an early age which, through the time value of money, will reap much greater rewards if you're patient?

Our generation is getting butt-raped by monthly fees because we're not thinking in annual costs.

While I see your point and agree with much of it, how is a man supposed to support himself, pay rent in a decent (only a decent- not a complete dump in a bad area- and not anything extravagant) and perhaps a wife and perhaps some student loans or training loans, after taxes? It's boggling to me considering the real costs of living these days. I don't know how pilots are managing their first few years any more.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Sounds like you are justifying your decision to not go the 121 route instead of offering substantive advice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not justifying anything. Just saying that it is best to keep the big picture in mind. When you factor things in like average 121 pay for the first few years at a regional combined with most pilot's substantial debt after flight training, it becomes clear that saving for retirement can be very difficult. And I haven't ruled out 121 yet. I'm just exploring all options. I am completely debt free (not including my mortgage) and even I know that if I were to go work for a regional I would face some tough choices and myself and my family would have to make some sacrifices. Maybe even selling the house. To me it would seem wiser to pursue a career at a job that will not only provide better pay up front (135 or 91 come to mind) but potentially better stability (which to me the regionals offer none of).

Career earnings, I could reproduce my retirement and present earnings in anything other than 121 @chrisreedrules.

Certainly in terms of days off and job stability, no way.

I am not disputing that one bit. Not all 135 and 91 gigs pay that great either. But most of the jet jobs I've seen in that sector of the industry (that I would consider flying for) offer somewhere around 35 to 40K starting salaries and go on up from there and include things like 401K matching and medical and also not including the per diem. I have a friend who is making 6 figures as an Excel CA and he's only 27. It is rare to find that in the 121 realm. Sure you get more time off and your work rules are very defined and you don't run into that company-induced "grey area" like you can sometimes run into with some 135 companies, but it would take a few years to make 35 to 40K at a regional. If regionals offered 35K first year pay it would make the financial aspect more feasible.

 

[A Life Aloft]

My wife is a part time dog walker. No student loan debt, but we do have a mortgage, but it's rather reasonable.

My hat is off to you for being able to manage on the crap assed pay. Seriously. It sure as hell cannot be easy. You seem like such a decent hard working guy too. This just irks me to no end.

 

[Gonzo]

I'm not justifying anything. Just saying that it is best to keep the big picture in mind. When you factor things in like average 121 pay for the first few years at a regional combined with most pilot's substantial debt after flight training, it becomes clear that saving for retirement can be very difficult. And I haven't ruled out 121 yet. I'm just exploring all options. I am completely debt free (not including my mortgage) and even I know that if I were to go work for a regional I would face some tough choices and myself and my family would have to make some sacrifices. Maybe even selling the house. To me it would seem wiser to pursue a career at a job that will not only provide better pay up front (135 or 91 come to mind) but potentially better stability (which to me the regionals offer none of).



I am not disputing that one bit. Not all 135 and 91 gigs pay that great either. But most of the jet jobs I've seen in that sector of the industry (that I would consider flying for) offer somewhere around 35 to 40K starting salaries and go on up from there and include things like 401K matching and medical and also not including the per diem. I have a friend who is making 6 figures as an Excel CA and he's only 27. It is rare to find that in the 121 realm. Sure you get more time off and your work rules are very defined and you don't run into that company-induced "grey area" like you can sometimes run into with some 135 companies, but it would take a few years to make 35 to 40K at a regional. If regionals offered 35K first year pay it would make the financial aspect more feasible.

I think you are getting bad info about 121. I have never made less than 45K at my regional and I am not at the highest paying one. Also during the early 2000's there were a lot of 23 year guys and girls making 6 figures.

 

[chrisreedrules]

I think you are getting bad info about 121. I have never made less than 45K at my regional and I am not at the highest paying one. Also during the early 2000's there were a lot of 23 year guys and girls making 6 figures.

You may be right... I'm only basing off of the figures I've seen on APC, some airline benefits comparison literature I have from ALPA, and my friends first hand experiences in the 121 world. I know all that can vary.

 

[derg]

While I see your point and agree with much of it, how is a man supposed to support himself, pay rent in a decent (only a decent- not a complete dump in a bad area- and not anything extravagant) and perhaps a wife and perhaps some student loans or training loans, after taxes? It's boggling to me considering the real costs of living these days. I don't know how pilots are managing their first few years any more.

Even though mine is unemployed at the moment, the concept of a spouse that doesn't work is completely baffling, but it's probably clouded by my economic background from when I was growing up when both of my parents were continuously employed. It'd be nice to live in the "Ward Cleaver" years where dad worked and mom was home with the children and hot dinner was on the table, but the "All Roads Lead to the Shareholders" world we live in today, it's a societal relic of the past, never to return.

Still, I steadfastly feel that there is "cost of living" and there is what we perceive to be the "cost of living" and those can be two vastly different things.

One can make it and plan for the future, but not to be all Dave Ramsey about it, but you have to delay 'pleasure' and know what's a basic staple and what is really a extravagance masked as a 'need'.

 

[derg]

I am not disputing that one bit. Not all 135 and 91 gigs pay that great either. But most of the jet jobs I've seen in that sector of the industry (that I would consider flying for) offer somewhere around 35 to 40K starting salaries and go on up from there and include things like 401K matching and medical and also not including the per diem. I have a friend who is making 6 figures as an Excel CA and he's only 27. It is rare to find that in the 121 realm. Sure you get more time off and your work rules are very defined and you don't run into that company-induced "grey area" like you can sometimes run into with some 135 companies, but it would take a few years to make 35 to 40K at a regional. If regionals offered 35K first year pay it would make the financial aspect more feasible.

And I know a guy who knows a guy whose uncle is a senior captain at Southwest that doesn't have a degree and another one that is a trillionaire with a GED, but the probability of either one of us having the same good fortune is a figure that asymptotically approaches zero.

Here's the split between what you're saying and what my philosophy is. I totally understand what you're saying and agree. However, my philosophy is spend as little time at the regionals as possible.

Easier said than done, yes, but here's the difference. Do something to set yourself apart from the herd. Network, join organizations that can help you, did I mention network? We've got a user who isn't all that senior at a regional, zero turbine PIC that networked his way into an opportunity of a lifetime at a large, global airline based in the Southeast US. We have another that did a killer job networking, staying positive and just resigned from the morass that is American Eagle and is going to a great Airbus operator with headquartered in the Northeast, again, with no turbine PIC. Hell, I get emails weekly, almost daily of people asking "Hey, I'm looking for a pilot to fly XYZ, who do you know?" but do people even both to ask tell me what their career aspirations are? NOPE, and I'm the easiest person to start with.

You gotta hustle. I say it over and over again, and people claim they are, but I can ask three key questions and that will tell me if they're actually hustling, or sitting around the internet all day bitching about everyone else moving up when they're not. I hear it and see it daily.

 

[derg]

You may be right... I'm only basing off of the figures I've seen on APC, some airline benefits comparison literature I have from ALPA, and my friends first hand experiences in the 121 world. I know all that can vary.

There's your first problem!

 

[Firebird2XC]

I understand that it's therapeutic to elucidate exactly why an airline position doesn't work for you, but does anyone think that airline HR departments don't know exactly why they're having trouble finding new FO's? It's why there's a rash of bonuses for new-hires and attempts at raising first-year pay during every hiring boom.

Writing letters may make us feel good, but let's be clear--it's highly unlikely that HR is going to say anything differently in a board meeting because they got one or a hundred letters detailing how low their pay is.

You'd be surprised. When I was hired at Eagle, senior Eagle FOs were bailing out to be street captains at Colgan. The HR people doing the interviews were thoroughly baffled, and as someone currently flying for CJC at the time, they were happy to pick my brain.

 

[A Life Aloft]

Even though mine is unemployed at the moment, the concept of a spouse that doesn't work is completely baffling, but it's probably clouded by my economic background from when I was growing up when both of my parents were continuously employed. It'd be nice to live in the "Ward Cleaver" years where dad worked and mom was home with the children and hot dinner was on the table, but the "All Roads Lead to the Shareholders" world we live in today, it's a societal relic of the past, never to return.

Still, I steadfastly feel that there is "cost of living" and there is what we perceive to be the "cost of living" and those can be two vastly different things.

One can make it and plan for the future, but not to be all Dave Ramsey about it, but you have to delay 'pleasure' and know what's a basic staple and what is really a extravagance masked as a 'need'.

Well, a young wife may also not be working because she is going to school to get her training/degree or could be a Mom and staying at home with her child, (which I happen to think is very important and the cost of someone to look after your child who you can really trust, is rather expensive) or only works part-time because of many reasons. I call cost of living as just the real necessities to get by and not extras. But as we all know, the cost of rents, food, gas, health insurance and utilities has surely risen faster than a lot of people's pay checks have.

 

[chrisreedrules]

And I know a guy who knows a guy whose uncle is a senior captain at Southwest that doesn't have a degree and another one that is a trillionaire with a GED, but the probability of either one of us having the same good fortune is a figure that asymptotically approaches zero.

Here's the split between what you're saying and what my philosophy is. I totally understand what you're saying and agree. However, my philosophy is spend as little time at the regionals as possible.

Easier said than done, yes, but here's the difference. Do something to set yourself apart from the herd. Network, join organizations that can help you, did I mention network? We've got a user who isn't all that senior at a regional, zero turbine PIC that networked his way into an opportunity of a lifetime at a large, global airline based in the Southeast US. We have another that did a killer job networking, staying positive and just resigned from the morass that is American Eagle and is going to a great Airbus operator with headquartered in the Northeast, again, with no turbine PIC. Hell, I get emails weekly, almost daily of people asking "Hey, I'm looking for a pilot to fly XYZ, who do you know?" but do people even both to ask tell me what their career aspirations are? NOPE, and I'm the easiest person to start with.

You gotta hustle. I say it over and over again, and people claim they are, but I can ask three key questions and that will tell me if they're actually hustling, or sitting around the internet all day bitching about everyone else moving up when they're not. I hear it and see it daily.

Well I'm the last to complain. I knew what I was getting into before I started my commercial training. And I would consider myself a pretty good networker. I know a lot of operators and I'm good at getting friends jobs and I always lend a helping hand where I can. And I have yet to be turned down for a job I actively pursued. I just hope that it pays off in the long run. And if it doesn't I'd at least like to say I enjoyed the ride.

 

[derg]

Well, a young wife may also not be working because she is going to school to get her training/degree or could be a Mom and staying at home with her child, (which I happen to think is very important and the cost of someone to look after your child who you can really trust, is rather expensive) or only works part-time because of many reasons. I call cost of living as just the real necessities to get by and not extras. But as we all know, the cost of rents, food, gas, health insurance and utilities has surely risen faster than a lot of people's pay checks have.

Fair enough.

However, man, the concept of a regional FO starting a family on FO pay and career instability because they're going to probably have to chase around opportunities for advancement is scary as hell because, as stated above, you've economically handcuffed yourself and you're barely starting out.

Personally, I figured that until I was pretty much where I wanted to be, anything that couldn't be loaded into the back of my Pontiac and driven in the middle of the night to a new city was extraneous and unnecessary and being tied down to a city, region or making a life decision that involves adding an additional person to the mix wasn't part of my game plan. If I had a kid back in the Skyway days, that would have been a career grenade for sure.

 

[HRDiva]

Sorry, I missed the word "matches". I still don't see how a pilot at any regional is going to be able to save any decent amount of money, let alone have a liquid emergency fund.

You do it, reducing your taxable income and get the Saver's credit on your tax return. I always put money aside, taught my son to do it and have a 79% participation rate (huge) in my plan at work because I show my employees the numbers and how they can make it work.

 

[z987k]

Fair enough.

However, man, the concept of a regional FO starting a family on FO pay and career instability because they're going to probably have to chase around opportunities for advancement is scary as hell because, as stated above, you've economically handcuffed yourself and you're barely starting out.

Personally, I figured that until I was pretty much where I wanted to be, anything that couldn't be loaded into the back of my Pontiac and driven in the middle of the night to a new city was extraneous and unnecessary and being tied down to a city, region or making a life decision that involves adding an additional person to the mix wasn't part of my game plan. If I had a kid back in the Skyway days, that would have been a career grenade for sure.

If it doesn't fit in my trailer, I don't own it. I can pack up and leave for any city in the US tomorrow.

 

[SteveC]

...
Still, I steadfastly feel that there is "cost of living" and there is what we perceive to be the "cost of living" and those can be two vastly different things.

One can make it and plan for the future, but not to be all Dave Ramsey about it, but you have to delay 'pleasure' and know what's a basic staple and what is really a extravagance masked as a 'need'.

QFT.

 

[derg]

If it doesn't fit in my trailer, I don't own it. I can pack up and leave for any city in the US tomorrow.

Like if and when airline bankruptcy strikes.

You're going to have the people that are going to jump off a building (true story bro), those that adjust their trim and weather the storm or those have the flexibility to jump ship to a better opportunity.

Personally, I'd want to be the one with the ability to jump at a better opportunity, Op Op @X-Forces style.