9L, 9E, XJ JCBA Actual Language

v1valarob said:
How is it fair that a guy has no one in front of him for an upgrade, suddenly have hundreds? How is it fair that a guy who was at an airline with no growth and was on the bottom of a list suddenly be close to upgrade?

And I can't wait for an integrated list. No whipsaw possible scenarios, but let's be real, Colgan wasn't bought on the back of Pinnacle pilots. It was bought because Pinnacle Corp got financing for it, as well as the Qs. Hell the company that sold Pinnacle Mesaba, gave them the financing for it.
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Fair? So then your argument is that airline X (Colgan) is no less or more valuable than Airline Y (Mesaba)? Obviously it's a tough sell for me any many other employees at my company. The argument does help feed the rationalization many prospective airline pilots convince themselves of that one regional is as good as another. I guess we'll have to see hu?
 
Or how about the guy that got hired in 08 knew that a potential seniority list merger might happen down the road since there was another property with more senior pilots owned by the same holding company. We can go around and around all day about this, and it'll get worse if we start bringing in the dreaded "career expectations" arguments. This is why the SLI committees are smart not to say anything to anyone about how things are going or where things might be leading. We'll all tear each other apart before it even happens. The only way it'll be fair is if all three groups are equally pissed off.
 
v1valarob said:
How is it fair that a guy has no one in front of him for an upgrade, suddenly have hundreds? How is it fair that a guy who was at an airline with no growth and was on the bottom of a list, suddenly is in the middle of the pack?

It's not a windfall for an 08 Colgan guy to be close to upgrade on a new list, when he could hold it on the new list.
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Not to refute, but to play devil's avocate- Mesaba guys (with 5-6 years longevity from what I have heard) are getting downgraded while Colgan (2 years longevity) AND Pinnacle (almost 5 years longevity) are upgrading. Pinnacle guys are getting pushed out of their home bases when Colgan has 09DOH CA's. Everyone has a different way of looking at things.

The Sli will first build "spots" on the list, then populate those spots in order of each seniority list. So in the middle it may be mesaba #XX, Pinnacle #XX, Colgan#XX and the overall seniority list is populated in that order from each individual list. You cannot "skip" anyone on your own list. There may be pilot #300 at colgan who is still an FO (for personal reasons) and Colgan pilot #301 is a Q CA, in the overall list #300 will still be above #301 even though the overall numbers will change (out of 3000ish instead of the current pilot list at Colgan) and there may be a mesaba and pinnacle guy in between the 2 colgan guys currently back to back. This is purely for example, and doesn't speak to any strategy or reality. Just an illustration of how all the lists work.
 
v1valarob said:
How is it fair that a guy has no one in front of him for an upgrade, suddenly have hundreds? How is it fair that a guy who was at an airline with no growth and was on the bottom of a list, suddenly is in the middle of the pack?

It's not a windfall for an 08 Colgan guy to be close to upgrade on a new list, when he could hold it on the new list.
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When was Pinnacle CORP created?
 
higney85 said:
Not to refute, but to play devil's avocate- Mesaba guys (with 5-6 years longevity from what I have heard) are getting downgraded while Colgan (2 years longevity) AND Pinnacle (almost 5 years longevity) are upgrading. Pinnacle guys are getting pushed out of their home bases when Colgan has 09DOH CA's. Everyone has a different way of looking at things.

The Sli will first build "spots" on the list, then populate those spots in order of each seniority list. So in the middle it may be mesaba #XX, Pinnacle #XX, Colgan#XX and the overall seniority list is populated in that order from each individual list. You cannot "skip" anyone on your own list. There may be pilot #300 at colgan who is still an FO (for personal reasons) and Colgan pilot #301 is a Q CA, in the overall list #300 will still be above #301 even though the overall numbers will change (out of 3000ish instead of the current pilot list at Colgan) and there may be a mesaba and pinnacle guy in between the 2 colgan guys currently back to back. This is purely for example, and doesn't speak to any strategy or reality. Just an illustration of how all the lists work.
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Which is why this whole thing sucks. I mean, we have guys on furlough, yet we are still hiring. It's gonna be a tough one.

We actually don't have any upgrades or awarded upgrades that are 09 hires. We only have about 4 or 5 still around, and between current upgrade award and 2010 hire there are 10 people.
 
v1valarob said:
How is it fair that a guy has no one in front of him for an upgrade, suddenly have hundreds? How is it fair that a guy who was at an airline with no growth and was on the bottom of a list, suddenly is in the middle of the pack?

It's not a windfall for an 08 Colgan guy to be close to upgrade on a new list, when he could hold it on the new list.
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1. An '08 hire(all 64) at mesaba(or 9e if there is any?) would be at the bottom of the list combined list. Not even close to the middle of the pack so don't worry there.

2. Just stop right there. Yes it is a windfall when the majority of a pilot group gets a 20-30% raise, work rules, and scope for just being there. No to mention the ability to fly 228 regional jets they would have never had a shot at(I know RJ's suck... and I know there are 30 Q400's). If an '08 hire gets moved up to the middle who do you move down? Because you have to move some one down. Do you tell that '05 9E guy that he should be behind you because you want your upgrade? Even though his negotiations got screwed because Corp wanted to buy an EAS carrier and give it the growth? So you took his upgrade and now you want his seniority while you may have been in college or flightschool when he was hired? Does that seem fair? Personally I think it should be DOH from '06 on(the bottom 1/2). I'm sure it won't, but all 3 were hiring simultaniously so who's to say that isnt fair?

Not trying to bust your balls personally. I'm just trying to get people to understand life isn't about "the upgrade". The me me me me me me me attitude is how you have scumbag places that pay deplorable wages and still get staffed. Lets work on the solution not the problem. That being said what ever is gonna happen will happen.
 
WalterSobchak said:
1. An '08 hire(all 64) at mesaba(or 9e if there is any?) would be at the bottom of the list combined list. Not even close to the middle of the pack so don't worry there.

As written in the Nostradamus Les Propheties quatrain 985? "...and the red-headed step children shall step over the spilled blood of the older birds with clipped wings"
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I have realized what it comes down to is, have you discussed your concerns with your airlines ALPA SLI committee? They will be negotiating for you.

After spending a day with one of our SLI guys, discussing certain portions of the Colgan only contract, Im pleased with who volunteered. Level headed and takes this stuff seriously. I later talked to him after he was on the SLI committee and aired my concerns. My place on the new list is in his hands now.
 
Tram said:
$1,000 and a kiss on the cheek says it's going to arbitration...
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You can keep 'em both. I'm not taking that bet. There's a reason they already set up dates for the arbitrator. They even set it to where the mediator and the arbitrator are the same person in order to speed things up. I think when it was announced we were going "one list" (that's for you , JTrain) all the saavy people figured it would go to arbitration.
 
I think it should be a physical thing.. Fight for your spot.. Last man standing is #1 and work it down from there.. ;)
 
Tram said:
I think it should be a physical thing.. Fight for your spot.. Last man standing is #1 and work it down from there.. ;)
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Talk about one for the history books... Royal Seniority Rumble.... or SJS- Seniority Juggular Shots

In a total saturday night hypothetical sense... I'm game.

Please no phone calls, I'm only kidding.
 
Guys, we can argue about SLI, career expectations, history and whatever else until the cows come home. At the end of the day, SLI is something that we don't have any control over. I have had the opportunity, and I do mean opportunity to meet fellow pilots from 9E and XJ at the road shows. I have to say I am very happy with the TA and I look forward to the day when we are all on one list and working together. I have no expectations of passing anyone or gaining anything in the SLI, just a place at the table with a large airline that flies a variety of aircraft from a range of bases across the country. As has been said before, attrition is going to increase as hiring increases at the next level. There should be plenty of opportunities for all of us as we move forward. Our focus now needs not be on SLI but instead to get this TA passed so no matter what company you came from or what aircraft you fly, you have the opportunity to get fair compensation for your work and work rules that improve everyone's quality of life. It's not about where we came from, it's all about where we are going.
 
drummerguy said:
Guys, we can argue about SLI, career expectations, history and whatever else until the cows come home. At the end of the day, SLI is something that we don't have any control over. I have had the opportunity, and I do mean opportunity to meet fellow pilots from 9E and XJ at the road shows. I have to say I am very happy with the TA and I look forward to the day when we are all on one list and working together. I have no expectations of passing anyone or gaining anything in the SLI, just a place at the table with a large airline that flies a variety of aircraft from a range of bases across the country. As has been said before, attrition is going to increase as hiring increases at the next level. There should be plenty of opportunities for all of us as we move forward. Our focus now needs not be on SLI but instead to get this TA passed so no matter what company you came from or what aircraft you fly, you have the opportunity to get fair compensation for your work and work rules that improve everyone's quality of life. It's not about where we came from, it's all about where we are going.
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Yes! It's refreshing to hear a Colgan guy that actually get's it, instead of some of the ridiculous moaning that's been going on!
 
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