9L, 9E, XJ JCBA Actual Language

ATN_Pilot said:
Maybe. Or it could create an unintended consequence of doing the exact opposite. There are conflicting theories on this. I'm still a bit undecided on which one I subscribe to, and it might even depend upon the company and the pilot group. The opposing theory is that automatic COLA raised take away most of the incentive that the pilots have to push towards a negotiated solution, as long as the work rules in their contract aren't absolutely horrible. Pilots tend to overlook work rule issues when they're guaranteed raises every single year into perpetuity. So, if the company worries that they might end up paying more than 3% per year in a new contract, and the pilots are relatively happy with their ongoing 3% raises, then contract negotiations could drag on pretty much forever. The other issues in the contract besides pay never get addressed. It's a tricky strategy question, and like I said, professional negotiators have many different views on it.
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True. Good points!
 
WalterSobchak said:
It's how you prevent 6 years of negotiating. Thats why people like myself find it annoying when junior colgan FO's whine about how little their raise is with this contract(that was negotiated in 3 months). I get no raise, the ability to refuse 3 jr man/ext events, and only scope against the whipsaw and I'm still happy.
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The only FO's left at Colgan will be 2010 hires when it's all over with, so that is kinda funny.
 
L-16B said:
The only FO's left at Colgan will be 2010 hires when it's all over with, so that is kinda funny.
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For the most part, yes.Currently, if you look at those who have a class date awarded, there are only 10 FOs left to go before they get to 2010 hires. Did you go to a roadshow? The slide on the breakdown of "years of service" slide was very interesting. This pilot group is not so senior after all.

Also.... I voted.
 
Tram said:
Did you think your pilot group was a "senior" group? This is not a flame, not an attack, not anything other than a question...
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I'm talking about as a whole. All 2700 pilots, almost 1/3 were hired in the past 4 years.
 
v1valarob said:
For the most part, yes.Currently, if you look at those who have a class date awarded, there are only 10 FOs left to go before they get to 2010 hires. Did you go to a roadshow? The slide on the breakdown of "years of service" slide was very interesting. This pilot group is not so senior after all.
Also.... I voted.
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I almost said except for rob..... I'm going to the iah show tonight
 
L-16B said:
I almost said except for rob..... I'm going to the iah show tonight
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Haha yea. Fine with me. I have been educated on alpa by laws on seniority list integration, and I'm not too worried anymore. Having Captains underneath me is a good thing.
 
I don't agree that COLAs would kill pilot's desire to negotiate a new contract. Pay rates were one of the last things I looked at on this TA. Scope, scheduling, insurance and hours of service all got looked at before compensation. If you've got deficiencies in those areas, I'd say pilots would be just as likely to go to the table with or without COLAs built in. On the flip side, what reason does management have to negotiate if they've got everything they need to push the pilot group to the limit and no COLAs? In our case, if it weren't for sky rocketing health care costs and the "synergies" promised to the shareholders from the Mesaba acquisition, I doubt our management would be very motivated at all. They certainly weren't for the past 6 years.....
 
v1valarob said:
For the most part, yes.Currently, if you look at those who have a class date awarded, there are only 10 FOs left to go before they get to 2010 hires. Did you go to a roadshow? The slide on the breakdown of "years of service" slide was very interesting. This pilot group is not so senior after all.

Also.... I voted.
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There might be 10 guys between the most junior captain and the 10 hires but there are plenty of FOs that are 08/09 hires that aren't upgrading right now. I think my estimates were around 70+ when I last checked.

I was also pretty surprised to see that slide on seniority amongst all the groups combined.
 
v1valarob said:
I'm talking about as a whole. All 2700 pilots, almost 1/3 were hired in the past 4 years.
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Hehe, yes, during hiring sprees much of your staff is populated in that timeframe :). Still, after all that hiring and what it does make up in total seniority between the three companies you still have a 12 year median on the top half of the Mesaba SL. Illustrating yet again how senior the Mesaba pilot group (top half) is compared to the whole 2700 pilot group. The amount of "newbies" is nearly overwhelming.
 
I am guessing that by the end of 2011, about 300+ of those 2700 will have left. Followed by another 500+ in 2012 when the legacy retirements really begin to gain momentum. Going to be very interesting at the regional level how they staf after all this forecasted attrition.
 
JrsyGuy said:
There might be 10 guys between the most junior captain and the 10 hires but there are plenty of FOs that are 08/09 hires that aren't upgrading right now. I think my estimates were around 70+ when I last checked.

I was also pretty surprised to see that slide on seniority amongst all the groups combined.
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True. However someone junior to you on your current list, cannot jump you on a new list. You think Captains will end up on the low end of the bottom half of a new list? I'm guessing new captains will end up around and midpoint, it only makes sense.
 
v1valarob said:
True. However someone junior to you on your current list, cannot jump you on a new list. You think Captains will end up on the low end of the bottom half of a new list? I'm guessing new captains will end up around and midpoint, it only makes sense.
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I wish u had the time, u woulda been based at home. At least u should have your pick of lines and a better payrate and some good work rules. I went to the roadshow last night and just voted yes. I was extremely impressed with their presentation, and I will be picking up a TON of open time come feb 18 :rawk: It took me like 20 minutes how to vote, it was a cluster! But I got it done. Even if this thing passes I will be dissapointed if we don't get 90% of pilots to at least take action and vote.
 
I will say that getting JMed on a day off is a complete reversal of who gets bent over now. Current book, you get paid 125% (150% if you're EXTENDED into your day off, which really only applies to reserves) of what you fly/credit on that day. Sometimes, it's just a DH. Gee, 150% of 50% of DTW-MEM. Thanks, guys. Now, it'll at least be 200% of 4 hours. Comp days have been a pain for some guys to get awarded, and the new system fixes that. In addition, you can pick and choose and REALLY nail 'em if you get creative with the comp day.
 
v1valarob said:
True. However someone junior to you on your current list, cannot jump you on a new list. You think Captains will end up on the low end of the bottom half of a new list? I'm guessing new captains will end up around and midpoint, it only makes sense.
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I fail to see how that is "fair and equatable" that people who are several years more junior get moved up in seniority. Whom ever you move up from the bottom 1304 pilots with less than 4 years you have to move some one down who has more than 4 years. So in your world it makes sense that some one who was hired in '08 at Colgan gets put ahead of some one hired in '05 at Pinnacle because they got "the quick upgrade" in the planes Pinnacle pilot group paid for? I fail to see anything fair and equatable about that. Then again I'm not an '08 hire at 9L.

No doubt this seniority list will be tricky considering Mesaba pilots make up 71%(354/501) of the pilots with 10+ years, but to think that people are entitled to seniority just based on seat is rediculous. As long as the provision is there where the captains can't be bumped out of the left seat unless displaced(essentially the way it is now) that is fair and equatable. With growth,hiring, and people leaving no one should get displaced just because of the integration.
 
WalterSobchak said:
I fail to see how that is "fair and equatable" that people who are several years more junior get moved up in seniority. Whom ever you move up from the bottom 1304 pilots with less than 4 years you have to move some one down who has more than 4 years. So in your world it makes sense that some one who was hired in '08 at Colgan gets put ahead of some one hired in '05 at Pinnacle because they got "the quick upgrade" in the planes Pinnacle pilot group paid for? I fail to see anything fair and equatable about that. Then again I'm not an '08 hire at 9L.

No doubt this seniority list will be tricky considering Mesaba pilots make up 71%(354/501) of the pilots with 10+ years, but to think that people are entitled to seniority just based on seat is rediculous. As long as the provision is there where the captains can't be bumped out of the left seat unless displaced(essentially the way it is now) that is fair and equatable. With growth,hiring, and people leaving no one should get displaced just because of the integration.
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Hehe. SLI is gonna be fun!
 
WalterSobchak said:
I fail to see how that is "fair and equatable" that people who are several years more junior get moved up in seniority. Whom ever you move up from the bottom 1304 pilots with less than 4 years you have to move some one down who has more than 4 years. So in your world it makes sense that some one who was hired in '08 at Colgan gets put ahead of some one hired in '05 at Pinnacle because they got "the quick upgrade" in the planes Pinnacle pilot group paid for? I fail to see anything fair and equatable about that. Then again I'm not an '08 hire at 9L.

No doubt this seniority list will be tricky considering Mesaba pilots make up 71%(354/501) of the pilots with 10+ years, but to think that people are entitled to seniority just based on seat is rediculous. As long as the provision is there where the captains can't be bumped out of the left seat unless displaced(essentially the way it is now) that is fair and equatable. With growth,hiring, and people leaving no one should get displaced just because of the integration.
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How is it fair that a guy has no one in front of him for an upgrade, suddenly have hundreds? How is it fair that a guy who was at an airline with no growth and was on the bottom of a list, suddenly is in the middle of the pack?

It's not a windfall for an 08 Colgan guy to be close to upgrade on a new list, when he could hold it on the new list.
 
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