250 Knots Below 10,000’

It wasn
That's a sketchy corporate jet. L-1329
It wasn't sketchy when it came out, Elvis had one, doesn't that make it golden? Lots of people had G-IIs, I remember the Nexxus jet, everything below the waterline was painted brown, dookie brown. Wheels, gear, the bottom of the fuselage and wings, it was ugly.
 
It wasn

It wasn't sketchy when it came out, Elvis had one, doesn't that make it golden? Lots of people had G-IIs, I remember the Nexxus jet, everything below the waterline was painted brown, dookie brown. Wheels, gear, the bottom of the fuselage and wings, it was ugly.

Oh, I don’t think it is sketchy at all. Even had a few of them as base tenants when I was a student pilot pumping gas at the FBO. The sketchy comment was a reference to another thread.
 
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Yes, the Lockheed Jetstar was in the movie "Face Off", and roughly around the time of this accident, TWA had a fleet based in Kansas City for pilot training. They had cockpits modified to represent airliners in the TWA fleet, I know at least 1 had a 727 cockpit and I think there was a 707 cockpit version also.
 
There was an Allegheny DC-9 collision around the same time on another multi-stop East Coast to Midwest flight. Sadly nailed a student on a solo XC in a Piper. I think that one lead to the advent of transponders on GA planes, though terminal areas didn't come until the PSA crash in San Diego and TCAS not until the Aeromexico one in LA.

What a way to go, terrible.

Drastic changes after the PSA midair.
 
In what major motion picture was a JetStar used for corporate travel?

Big hint:
Screenshot 2021-03-09 204153.png
 
Covered here:




Technically, they hit each other.



Nor anyone else between the two aircraft. Known issue with the front ejection seats when the back goes,

Same with the pax who had to ride the jet still, looking at a giant hole and sky where the cockpit used to be after it was cleanly sliced off from about row 3 forward.



Are we really going to pretend that the average pilot can see a fast moving fighter jet, be able to decipher what flight path he is on, and what the maneuvering that would be needed to avoid hitting him? I have to say in the FLs that traffic at 1,000 ft above from a certain distance, it looks visually like he's at our height. It's only as it gets closer that discerning comes easier. Your writeup in that post is pretty good, but the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that it's a paper exercise to say the plane was "visible" for 40 seconds prior to impact, and with clouds and shadows, really only 10 seconds prior to impact? What are the chances that in those particular 10 seconds, the crew just happened to be scanning that sliver of airspace? For all we know, the DC9 crew's heads could have been on a swivel, but in those last seconds, they were scanning another part of the sky, after having glanced at the area the fighter jet came from (at a moment when it was too far for the naked eye to see). That's why I'm tired of accident reports that write off the probably cause as failure to see and avoid for a midair collision. It doesn't do justice.

No different than the Excelaire and GOL collision. Head on, it would have been a speck until the last ~10 seconds or so. And even then, it may very well have been a "hey, is that a speck on the windshield?" "Let me see my TCAS, I don't see any planes on it this high" No. Look out again. Collision. Of course it didn't happen that way, neither crew had any clue about each other.
 
b508094121c41e0e2b7824e7105a641c.jpg


Yes, the Lockheed Jetstar was in the movie "Face Off", and roughly around the time of this accident, TWA had a fleet based in Kansas City for pilot training. They had cockpits modified to represent airliners in the TWA fleet, I know at least 1 had a 727 cockpit and I think there was a 707 cockpit version also.

Frommer’s Fun Fact, Pan Am had private jets for a minute too



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Are we really going to pretend that the average pilot can see a fast moving fighter jet, be able to decipher what flight path he is on, and what the maneuvering that would be needed to avoid hitting him? I have to say in the FLs that traffic at 1,000 ft above from a certain distance, it looks visually like he's at our height. It's only as it gets closer that discerning comes easier. Your writeup in that post is pretty good, but the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that it's a paper exercise to say the plane was "visible" for 40 seconds prior to impact, and with clouds and shadows, really only 10 seconds prior to impact? What are the chances that in those particular 10 seconds, the crew just happened to be scanning that sliver of airspace? For all we know, the DC9 crew's heads could have been on a swivel, but in those last seconds, they were scanning another part of the sky, after having glanced at the area the fighter jet came from (at a moment when it was too far for the naked eye to see). That's why I'm tired of accident reports that write off the probably cause as failure to see and avoid for a midair collision. It doesn't do justice.

No different than the Excelaire and GOL collision. Head on, it would have been a speck until the last ~10 seconds or so. And even then, it may very well have been a "hey, is that a speck on the windshield?" "Let me see my TCAS, I don't see any planes on it this high" No. Look out again. Collision. Of course it didn't happen that way, neither crew had any clue about each other.

That’s all there was in that area in 1971. Visual lookout. TCAS didn’t exist. Radar coverage was spotty in many areas, if existent at all. What you’re ignoring is that the conclusions at the time are based on what was available and in use at the time. The F-4Bs AI radar could have been of assistance had it been working.

In terms of see and avoid as a concept, it depends. It depends on where it’s being applied. See and avoid between aircraft in a traffic pattern vs see and avoid between aircraft in the teens altitudes converging head on at 800 knots closure, are two very different things. In some areas, it’s very applicable, in other areas, not as much in terms of effectiveness.
 
That’s all there was in that area in 1971. Visual lookout. TCAS didn’t exist. Radar coverage was spotty in many areas, if existent at all. What you’re ignoring is that the conclusions at the time are based on what was available and in use at the time. The F-4Bs AI radar could have been of assistance had it been working.

In terms of see and avoid as a concept, it depends. It depends on where it’s being applied. See and avoid between aircraft in a traffic pattern vs see and avoid between aircraft in the teens altitudes converging head on at 800 knots closure, are two very different things. In some areas, it’s very applicable, in other areas, not as much in terms of effectiveness.

I get that, I appreciate that article/blast from the past.


Speaking of which, why'd ya quit writing?
 
That’s all there was in that area in 1971. Visual lookout. TCAS didn’t exist. Radar coverage was spotty in many areas, if existent at all. What you’re ignoring is that the conclusions at the time are based on what was available and in use at the time. The F-4Bs AI radar could have been of assistance had it been working.

In terms of see and avoid as a concept, it depends. It depends on where it’s being applied. See and avoid between aircraft in a traffic pattern vs see and avoid between aircraft in the teens altitudes converging head on at 800 knots closure, are two very different things. In some areas, it’s very applicable, in other areas, not as much in terms of effectiveness.

Out of curiosity, would it be fairly standard for our military birds to be running their AI radar outside of a training environment or downrange (then and now). I wouldn't think that they'd be running scans while just ferrying around place to place, but it seems plausible that it wouldn't cause too many issues if they did. TWS is a beautiful thing.
 
They had cockpits modified to represent airliners in the TWA fleet, I know at least 1 had a 727 cockpit and I think there was a 707 cockpit version also.
The "airline T" is the best thing that ever happened to instrument arrangements. I don't remember when or how that became standard, but I sure am glad it is.
 
This accident, 54 years ago today, is the reason for the speed restriction.

Type:
Silhouette image of generic DC91 model; specific model in this crash may look slightly different

Douglas DC-9-15
Operator:Trans World Airlines - TWA
Registration:N1063T
C/n / msn:45777/80
First flight:1967
Engines:2 Pratt & Whitney JT8D-7
Crew:Fatalities: 4 / Occupants: 4
Passengers:Fatalities: 21 / Occupants: 21
Total:Fatalities: 25 / Occupants: 25
Collision casualties:Fatalities: 1
Aircraft damage:Damaged beyond repair
Location:near Urbana, OH (
N.gif
United States of America)
Phase:En route (ENR)
Nature:Domestic Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport:Pittsburgh International Airport, PA (PIT/KPIT), United States of America
Destination airport:Dayton-James Cox Dayton International Airport, OH (DAY/KDAY), United States of America
Flightnumber:TW553
Narrative:
TWA 553 operated on a flight from New York to Chicago via Harrisburgh, Pittsburgh, and Dayton. The aircraft operated on an IFR flight plan in visual flight conditions and had been cleared to descend from FL200 to 3000 feet. While descending through 4525 feet the DC-9 collided with a Beechcraft 55 (N6127V operated by the Tann Comp.) which was on a flight to Springfield. The descending DC-9, overtaking and converging from the left, struck the level Beechcraft from the left rear quarter. The collision angle between longitudinal axes of the two aircraft was approx. 47deg in the horizontal plane and 10deg down in the vertical plane. The collision destroyed the Beechcraft by causing it to disintegrate; portions of the Beech penetrated the forward fuselage section of the DC-9 and destroyed the integrity of the flight control system. The DC-9 entered a descending left turn, crashed and burned. The Beechcraft was not under control of, or in radio contact with any FAA traffic facility. Weather at the time of the collision was thin broken clouds with 6-7 miles visibility in haze.


Probable Cause:

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the DC-9 crew to see and avoid the Beechcraft. Contributing to this cause were physiological and environmental conditions and the excessive speed of the DC-9 which reduced visual detection capabilities under an air traffic control system which was not designed or equipped to separate a mixture of controlled and uncontrolled traffic."

As a boy I would rummage through all of my Grandpa's stuff in a YUGE walk-in closet-room he had in his finished basement. All manner of TWA stuff, Saudi Arabian Airlines stuff, etc. I came upon two very large boxes in the back of the room one day. And they were full of thousands of pages of documents, testimony, technical drawings, NTSB memos among the investigators of this accident, a letter from the FAA Administrator thanking my Grandpa for his input and "tireless work" in this situation (with a handwritten note saying "And NEXT time I'm in KC we're going for a ride in your WACO!} and a personal letter to my Grandpa from the CEO of TWA thanking him for being TWA's representative on the investigation of the Urbana wreck. I spent days pouring through it. He had never brought this up but was happy to tell me all about it when I asked him. He said the speed limits below 10k came because of this accident. He never bragged about stuff - mostly what I'd have to do is find things while rummaging through his crap and then ask him. He was always happy to answer questions and tell the tales, but never brought them up himself. He was the lead TWA pilot when they got the DC-9 initially. Developed the training for the airplane, flew the acceptance flights of the first ones and he was the guy that knew the airplane the best when this crash happened. Thanks Frank for posting this.
 
As a boy I would rummage through all of my Grandpa's stuff in a YUGE walk-in closet-room he had in his finished basement. All manner of TWA stuff, Saudi Arabian Airlines stuff, etc. I came upon two very large boxes in the back of the room one day. And they were full of thousands of pages of documents, testimony, technical drawings, NTSB memos among the investigators of this accident, a letter from the FAA Administrator thanking my Grandpa for his input and "tireless work" in this situation (with a handwritten note saying "And NEXT time I'm in KC we're going for a ride in your WACO!} and a personal letter to my Grandpa from the CEO of TWA thanking him for being TWA's representative on the investigation of the Urbana wreck. I spent days pouring through it. He had never brought this up but was happy to tell me all about it when I asked him. He said the speed limits below 10k came because of this accident. He never bragged about stuff - mostly what I'd have to do is find things while rummaging through his crap and then ask him. He was always happy to answer questions and tell the tales, but never brought them up himself. He was the lead TWA pilot when they got the DC-9 initially. Developed the training for the airplane, flew the acceptance flights of the first ones and he was the guy that knew the airplane the best when this crash happened. Thanks Frank for posting this.
Great story!
 
Out of curiosity, would it be fairly standard for our military birds to be running their AI radar outside of a training environment or downrange (then and now). I wouldn't think that they'd be running scans while just ferrying around place to place, but it seems plausible that it wouldn't cause too many issues if they did. TWS is a beautiful thing.

giving traffic to fighters they usually respond “radar contact” (which is as helpful to me as “got him on the fishfinder) so I’m going to guess yes.
 
Out of curiosity, would it be fairly standard for our military birds to be running their AI radar outside of a training environment or downrange (then and now). I wouldn't think that they'd be running scans while just ferrying around place to place, but it seems plausible that it wouldn't cause too many issues if they did. TWS is a beautiful thing.

There’s always time to get training, to kill time, any number of reasons. The radar wouldn’t be off while flying (unless broken), but at worse would just be on and caged.
 
In what major motion picture was a JetStar used for corporate travel?

Big hint:
View attachment 58278
No one wins.

Hellfighters is a 1968 American adventure film directed by Andrew V. McLaglen and starring John Wayne, Katharine Ross and Jim Hutton. The movie depicts about a group of oil well firefighters, based loosely on the life of Red Adair. Adair, "Boots" Hansen, and "Coots" Matthews served as technical advisers on the film.[2]

Hell Fighters was a good movie. Who doesn't like the 60's music?

 
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